Smacking Children: Ok or Not Ok? - Print Topic

I think a smack on the bum is ok, I agree with antony kids need more discipline, I have 4 kid�s and they have all received at one time or another a smack on the bum, I have been told by other parents when our kids have slept over their friends or when we have been out as a family, coming to us saying what great kids we have, they are by no means angels, all I have to do now is raise my voice and they know that if they continue they get a smack, their ages range from 13,9,8,7. But we have taught them how to behave.
One of the problems is the government stepping in telling parents how to raise their kids, on one hand they say, if you discipline your kids we will send DOCS in, then on the other hand they say what little shits the kids when they grow up and that the parents are to be held responsible for the kid�s crimes. There is no real magic formula for raising kids :-/ and I think some parents go overboard, but I think in the end there should be more discipline at home and at school.

Wow, everyone here says its ok (except for one 'dunno), but the poll has a couple of 'no' opinions. I'd love to know what their reasoning is behind their answers. Those who have said 'yes' have given great reasons.

I think its fine to smack a kid, so long as it's yours! And they do get to a certain age where its better to take away priveleges or take money off their allowance or something, instead of smacking. I think its crazy that they want to outlaw it. The goverment are going too far, they have no right to tell parents what they can and can't do when it comes to their kids.... Unless you're a deadbeat parent who thinks its ok to put your kid in a dryer for fun, or its funny to give your kid beer, or use dope to garnish their spagettii meal... In which case yes, the government should step in and let them know what they can and can't do with their kids, followed by a mandatory sterelization of the parents....

If discipline can be instilled without hitting/smacking then it should be used. I do not agree with smacking. I was hit frequently for the stupidest of reasons when a child, as were my three older sisters. Our mother was the disciplinarian and I absolutely dispised her for what she did to us girl's. It took a long time to get over it, in fact it is only in the last 10 years that I haven't thought of her as a tyrant. The last time she hit me was when she slapped me hard across the face when I was about 13-14. We were afraid of her because we didn't know what was going to set her off. She used a feather duster cane and the wooden spoon, mostly, but had a 'strap' made of thick leather. I smacked my kids as many times as you can count on one hand and always on the fattest part of their bum but I don't even agree with that any more.
I never copped it as badly as my much older sisters. The eldest would run, and Mum would just wait until she returned home, the third one would cry before the first hit, so wasn't hit as hard and the second one was defiant and stood and took her punishment without a sound... so she copped it the worst. After belting me once mum locked me in 'the back room' where I happily sat and read comic books which were kept there. When Dad came home he was outraged and let me out. Mum got into trouble from Dad and of course she took it out on me first chance she got. A smack, I have seen, can lead to something much more brutal. I experienced it myself and I saw it in my second ex-husband with our son. I intervened and prevented permanent harm but some people go to the next level when dispensing a 'smack'.
Take away their Game Boy, Cinema outings, pocket money, TV, make-up for a couple of weeks or a month before resorting to smacking. If the child is too young for those things, tie up the swing, ban them from their favourite toys or treats, anything. That's my opinion from my experience. Cheers all. :)

smacking could lead to much worse. i voted no. parents should try other methods before resorting to violence because that's what it is, no matter how soft. it encourages them to smack their friends if they fight.

Quoted from SuziH

...Take away their Game Boy, Cinema outings, pocket money, TV, make-up for a couple of weeks or a month before resorting to smacking. If the child is too young for those things, tie up the swing, ban them from their favourite toys or treats, anything. That's my opinion from my experience...

And if the child still misbehaves? Hmm? It's very easy to stand back and say "you're a tyrant because you hit your kid". A smack on the bottom is not abuse, and of course it's the last resort; that was obvious to me.

Quoted from marvin

...I think some parents go overboard, but I think in the end there should be more discipline at home and at school.

I agree but schools can do little. We're not allowed to touch a child; they banned the cane etc. As for parents, their attitude is "he/she's your problem". Catch 22.

think its fine to smack a kid, so long as it's yours! L:O

Thats assualt plain and simple, there is absolutly nothing wrong with smacking a child to enforce the issue and i'm quiet sure that what is deemed abuse in relation to a smack is it cannot be above the shoulder. I was smacked when I was a child I don't see any issues with me ( some might disagree thou) :P

'Time out' is also a popular deterrent. Some parents don't impliment any other punishment but hitting. They haul off and smack/hit the child before they even think sometimes. I was NEVER a naughty child and neither were my sisters. We were quiet, and we never fought, honestly our mother was blessed but she still found things to punish us for. I know you are in the education system Paula and you must see the full scale of behaviour, good and bad. I have seen children get beaten at the shopping centres. I had to hold my then 17 year old daughter back once from hitting a man at the shops who was beating his tot. She verbally told him off instead. I was taught in family life classes that the hand of a parent should never be used to harm/hit/punish, it is to show children love, with a touch, a hug, a pat. I know there must be absolutely dreadful children out there whose behaviour would seemingly deserve a good throttling but violence only begets a mindset that violence is acceptable. Regarding the debate in the news though. If smacking your children was banned.... how would those in power police it and what is to stop a child reporting being 'smacked' when they haven't. Can't be done IMHO. :-/

Quoted from SuziH

Take away their Game Boy, Cinema outings, pocket money, TV, make-up for a couple of weeks or a month before resorting to smacking. If the child is too young for those things, tie up the swing, ban them from their favourite toys or treats, anything. That's my opinion from my experience. Cheers all. :)

Good idea, and I would add mobile phone, telephone usage, internet access, PSP, iPod to the list.

Smocking is not violence.

I really hate today's kids, they thought they were very smart. They are good at false accusing people and hence ruin other adults' lives. Today's kids are just too evil. They know they won't get punished seriously because laws were on their side.

A real case: an underage boy set up a bush fire in NSW few years ago. His punishment? Merely a few thousand dollars fine and he said he was sorry. Too bad for families losing all their lives' savings and memories. That is NSW's justice. The law system is simply telling all youngsters a message: you can burn down other people's house for just a few thousand dollars.

Smocking is not violence - of cause it isn't Smoking in a public place is thou :P

Smacking to the degree of Physical assault is. If i was to smack you thats assault, a child is no different just cause they are younger means nothing. However, Police and FaCTS realize that a smack on the bum is sometimes nessasary so they allow it providing it doesnt physically harm a kid or leave welts or above the shoulder.

Quoted Text

I really hate today's kids

Depends what kids you mean. If you mean those kids that pop up on Today Tonight, then I'll give you that. If you mean people like me, then we're just plain old pricks. The Year 8s and 9 are pretty annoying and stupid though.

Quoted from dara

smacking could lead to much worse. i voted no. parents should try other methods before resorting to violence because that's what it is, no matter how soft. it encourages them to smack their friends if they fight.

Where have you been for the last 50 years dara, �it encourages them to smack their friends in a fight???� If their going to fight, it's not going to be harsh language or a 10 page essay on 'how you feel towards the other person� girls pull hair and scratch, boys punch, honestly between the government and the yuppies thinking flower power will discipline your kids, no wonder half the crap�s happening with the youth these days, suzi I do feel sorry for you, as I said before some parents do go overboard in smacking. But discipline you kids by talking etc.

Example of teen�s these day�s, and I do not mean all of them, but the way society is trying to mould parents and stating that BS � smacking is abuse / violence �. A friend of ours has a teen daughter, rebelled at school, because teachers have just about zero power these day�s, throwing a chair at the teacher and nearly hitting him, she knew the worst would be suspension, WOW really telling the kid there, rebelled at home because the school informed the mother about what happened, at the heat of the argument the mother told her to get out of her sight, meaning get out the house, the daughter turned around and told her to go jump, the mother went to grab her by the arm, to get her out the house and the daughter turned and said � Don�t you touch me, don�t you dare touch me, you touch me and I�ll have your a** in jail. She is 11 years old, all because of yuppies and government stepping in telling you how to raise your kid, the kids learn and play on that as a bluff over the parent(s). They have no respect for adults. If I had said that to my mother or father I would have gotten the belt across the butt, yes I got hit with my fathers belt, when I played up and was a little s**t and went overboard, for anyone to say they are / were perfect as a kid is BS.

I say instead of suspension, bring the cane back, 6 of the best across the butt or hand and then back to class. Becha they think twice about mouthing off again plus they don�t get a holiday at home from suspension and loose out on education. I agree that there are other methods of action with kids, but taking smacking away all together is making matters worse not better.

Yes it would be nice to live in a perfect world where we didn�t have to discipline our kids or there was no disease or famine, there was no upper, middle or lower class and everybody had happy happy joy joy feelings towards one another :) But unfortunately that is not reality, or the world we live in.

I don't think its okay, because parents are reacting out of fear and anger.  Its a loss of control on the parent's behalf.  You teach your children that using violence when you are angry is appropriate, because that's when they see YOU doing it to them.

There are other ways to deal with naughty children.  Lordy, look at the nanny programs on television at the moment, and see the results that they get from using alternatives, such as 'the naughty chair/spot'.  Far more effective in dealing with bad behaviour.

The problem is that most parents are too lazy to learn some basics about human behaviour and alternative techniques.  I think some people are using their children as pay back for their own miserable childhood, too.  "Good enough for me, good enough for them."

Quoted from Jodes

I don't think its okay, because parents are reacting out of fear and anger. Its a loss of control on the parent's behalf. You teach your children that using violence when you are angry is appropriate, because that's when they see YOU doing it to them.

Who says parents are reacting out of fear and anger when smacking? Loosing control ??) To say that every parent that smacks there kid on the bum is red faced in a total rage is just plain dumb,I agree that there are some parents that do that and to say that dosent happen is just stupidity, quoting the nanny program, please, it�s a TV show. You see what they want you to see.

Quoted from marvin

Where have you been for the last 50 years dara,

For a start if you paid any attention Dara ain’t  20 yet alone 50

Dara has a point from her generation - to display your generational belief on her is not only unfair but misguided.

That’s like saying just cause your parents walked to school bare foot and trudged thru 6 feet of snow doesn't mean the next generation has to also.

Furthermore , your comment  "They have no respect for adults"  is way out of left field  that’s how you see it. I see you used examples of "other " peoples kids I’m assuming you do that cause you have not raised them yourself.  Respect is earnt  its not a right - if you respect your children and remember your own experiences of growing up days .. then you will respect kids for being well just that kids.

No amount of canning is going to stop a rebellious kid -  just as you cannot stop a child from opening up the cupboard when you tell them not too - life’s lessons are learnt from experience not from over zealous parents.

Above all else don't make the mistake of trying to undo your life and live it thru your own children

My father beat my mother, my younger brother and myself 4 most of my life. I now have a child of my own, whom i have never laid a hand on his life...nor will ever.
I have lived the horror of secret abuse and i would not wish it on my worst enemy.
A child must feel safe and protected by their parents, hitting your child will not only hurt them physically, but, the emotional scares will live on 4ever. You mend the wounds but the scars are always there, waiting to rear its ugly head in the form of a panic attack or worse.
(pray) Please dont hit your children...

Quoted from kat24

My father beat my mother, my younger brother and myself 4 most of my life. I now have a child of my own, whom i have never laid a hand on his life...nor will ever.
I have lived the horror of secret abuse and i would not wish it on my worst enemy.
A child must feel safe and protected by their parents, hitting your child will not hurt them physically but the emotional scares will live on 4ever. You mend the wounds but the scars are always there, waiting to rear its ugly head in the form of a panic attack or worse.
(pray) Please dont hit your children...

Hear Hear!

I work with children and in my opinion parents whom smack their children are plain lazy! Use your brains ... they're your children... what do you give them the right to enjoy (with your money) when they're good??? Think... ok, now take it away when their bad! pffft.. how hard was that?

Another reason too that smacking needs to be banned is to work with those whom are there trying to educate your children. We don't have the right to use physical violence to maintain children's behaviour (as we all did 'back in the day'.. well, not my day :p) now times that by 24!! They need to know that there are other ways that bad behaviour is dealt with and that these consequences are serious business! For instance - at kindy if they can not play appropriately in home corner = the right to enjoy home corner is taken away for that indoor period of time. At home - if they can not speak to you as an adult in an appropriate manor the right to enjoy friends visiting/tv privileges/a certain toy etc... is taken away. Other than this there are SO many ways around sufficiently dealing with inappropriate behaviour - they just take reinforcing and time.

If parents actually didn't except the behaviour as 'being a child of today?!' and stopped the laziness (a whole other issue) there wouldn't be children back chatting with no fear until a 'smack' were threatened.

...Of course I'm not talking about all parents some are too brilliant for words but there is too those who really need to step it up!

Oh Allycat, how narrow minded you are

QUOTE �Furthermore , your comment "They have no respect for adults" is way out of left feild thats how you see it. I see you used examples of "other " peoples kids i'm assuming you do that cause you have not raised them yourself.�

The example I used is with a very close friend of ours who we care about a lot, my point with that was not with the parent raising the child but with everyone else telling you how to raise your kid, I don�t care if I raised them myself or not, I have 4 of my own to worry about. I think you are confusing the issue with child abuse.

My final opinion is :

Should kids get a smack for going overboard = �Yes� basic discipline
Should kids get pulverized into the ground for doing something wrong = �No� that�s abuse

Quoted from marvin

Should kids get pulverized into the ground for doing something wrong = No, that's abuse

...and she's the narrow minded one? 'pulverized into the ground' .. what a lovely way to define abuse!

EDIT –

I've experienced it, seen it occur, heard stories, read about it and been educated on it... smacking is the lowest form of abuse - a light tap is nothing right? However, If we say that smacking is an appropriate form of discipline who is it that decides what is an appropriate smack – what do we do with these requirements?

Ok so, we have a large red handprint the next day it appears with only slight yellow/purple toning BUT - it occurred from ‘just a smack’!? That would’ve been one slightly hard smack but you wouldn’t have known how hard it was until it was implemented - is that okay? So how do we define how hard it is to smack? Not everybody has the common sense to ‘just know’. So, how hard are we allowed to smack?

Then we have the problem of where is the smack allowed? ... I use to be smacked around the ear… almost lost my hearing BUT it was ‘just a smack’..?

Any form of physical violence is abuse.

Quoted from marvin

Oh Allycat, how narrow minded you are

I think you are confusing the issue with child abuse.

My final opinion is :

Should kids get a smack for going overboard = ?Yes? basic discipline
Should kids get pulverized into the ground for doing something wrong = ?No? that?s abuse

Narrow minded  btw it Alleycat

Omg what a poor response  ill give you narrow mindness on a grand scale.

Recieving a 000 call to attend an address reported with a Child in distress,

attending such address finding one small child aged at 4 with extensive contusions about the upper left quadrant and a collapsed lung with 5 possible fractured ribs and a ruptured spleen internal bleeding as indicated with guarding of the diaphram region, extensive contusions to the face and head with large welts in the lower extremities and indications of finger marks left by said parent.

So don't tell me that smacking a child is not abuse in any form this is only 1 of a number of cases I have attended. so get of your soap box  when you have faced the aftermath of a smack that has gone horribly wrong then you can call me narrowminded.

BTW the child expired from her injuries

Wake up and smell the roses - what right do you have to call me narrowminded

Name calling the the tool used by those with no sound argument left. . it always deflects from reasoning debate.

It does not matter really what we all think . . the 'ban' and accompanied laws are unenforcable.

The thought of small children 'dobbing in' a parent to teachers or police is too horrible to imagine. Children under 7 can't be prosecuted because they cannot be relied on to know the difference between right and wrong. That same child could not testify reliably in a 'smacking' case unless there are bruises . . so the small smack on the bum is going to go unprosecuted.

The courts are loathe to prosecute between family members anyway . . their family stays family long after the court/procesution . . so admimistering the 'smacking law' will be a waste of time.

I would be furious if my childs rapist avoided court because there was a backlog of cases going after 'smackers' . . and the 'smackers' would be driven underground - not stopped anyway.

All these people who think that 'today's children are too evil' are fooling themselves. What, you think any other area of children behaved perfectly? No, they didn't, they had just as many normal behavioural issues as today's lot, as will the next generation.

If a kid is threatening you with reporting, then they've probably heard you mouthing off about 'how easy it is' and 'how evil kids are these days' and realised that's your biggest fear!

:B :B :Bit depends on who does the smacking
and how hard do they do it
when it leaves a black and blue mark--thats abuse-
when we got the strap at school or the ruler over your knuckles--thats abuse-so the best way is dont do it at all-then there is no strife.

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

attending such address finding one small child aged at 4 with extensive contusions about the upper left quadrant and a collapsed lung with 5 possible fractured ribs and a ruptured spleen internal bleeding as indicated with guarding of the diaphram region, extensive contusions to the face and head with large welts in the lower extremities and indications of finger marks left by said parent.

So don't tell me that smacking a child is not abuse

That is not smacking! That is beating. There is a HUGE difference! A smack could never do that harm! All a smack can do is leave a bit of a red mark and a stinging sensation. Any harder and its not a smack, its a hit. And parents should NEVER hit their kids!

Quoted from Simpson

That is not smacking! That is beating.

Define a smack in a legal sence that will stand up in an Australian court of law.

then define a hit under the same princible

Then and only then you can put pen to paper

Quoted from marvin

Where have you been for the last 50 years dara, �it encourages them to smack their friends in a fight???� If their going to fight, it's not going to be harsh language or a 10 page essay on 'how you feel towards the other person� girls pull hair and scratch, boys punch, honestly between the government and the yuppies thinking flower power will discipline your kids, no wonder half the crap�s happening with the youth these days, suzi I do feel sorry for you, as I said before some parents do go overboard in smacking. But discipline you kids by talking etc.
I say instead of suspension, bring the cane back, 6 of the best across the butt or hand and then back to class.

As if you would smack a teenager! They'd never let you near em! Anyway, where have I been for the last 50 years? Non existant bar the last 15 years! what age group are you talking about? Little girls might fight but older girls are usually more inclined to verbal bullying whereas boys would still bash each other.
Bring the cane back??!! A bit harsh, really make school a place to learn, you'd be scared stiff - you'd wag every day cuz you'd be frightened to come to school!
That makes me laugh though, I can just (not) imagine some of my teachers with a cane! Funny image!

I voted "Dunno" mainly because I was smacked as a kid and it had very little effect on me at all as it was not over used or frequent, even at school when we used to get the strap (the cuts), 6 of the best across both palms for whatever off teachers, it in fact became a game amongst us in High School, see who could get the strap the most times in a week, it became like a rites of passage thing I guess for young males (so it actually lead to us trying to piss the teachers off more than we normally would).

All I can think of as I read this is of a couple of South Park episodes, one were the kids are running riot so they give them Ritalin to control them, then in the end they decide it is better to give them a smack across the bottom rather than drugs, as that is all they need. Also one where Cartman plays up and his mum gets the Super Nanny in and etc and it all it fails, so they bring in a dog trainer to handle him, he plays up and gets a flick across the ear, and then ignored, they eat dinner and still ignore him and etc; basically treat him like a dog would treat a pup, nothing heavy handed but enough to stop the bad behaviour.

Plus I do not have children and probably never will, so not having been in the circumstance I do not know or feel I have the right to say what others should do ... mainly because getting a smack on the bottom never harmed me at all ... though I think no child should ever be slapped across the face at all ... but a flick with one finger to the top of the ear and a stern stop it, maybe (I have never hit my dogs though so a child I wouldn't either I guess).

Im going to add this as it has yet to be ratified and approved.

Paragraph 405 of Australia's First Report, that the status of the lawful chastisement by parents defence was being considered by the Model Criminal Code Officers Committee. The Committee reported on this issue in September 1998. In doing so, the Committee considered Articles 19(1), 28(2) and 37 of the Convention.

The Committee was of the opinion that "at the present, it goes too far to criminalise a corrective smacking by a parent or guardian, so long as the force used is reasonable." The Committee did recommend that a legislative standard of reasonableness be established and that the use of objects in such a way as to cause or risk causing injury be prohibited.

As you can see this is too open to interpretation as;

1/ how do you define risk causing injury ( Physical and mentally there are 2 forms of what is considered injury)

2/ the use the term objects in a broad sence since anything can be classed as an object.

Continued with reasonable force there is not presently any standard guideline as to what is considered reasonable it is a based currently on a case by case matter.

So the onus then falls on you to justify your definition of reasonable force but the courts (depending on previous like case and the residing judge) my see your idea as unreasonable, since commonsence cannot not be accepted or used in defence the current legislation is open to interpretation.

Just looking at how complicated this issue is will make police groan as they figure how to deal with the possible avalanche of reports. . .we have laws now that cover child abuse so it is not as if kids have no legal protection at all . . policing this new regime could prove a lot harder than it looks.

Lets see. I don't think I was an unruly child, but my mother (single parent most of the time) "spanked" me with

Wooden Spoon (broke three)
Doors collar
Wooden Rulers

and had stones thrown at me

and yet I turned out okay. Looking at kids today, I feel they need discipline as trying to reason with a child just doesn't work. No matter how much today's parents think they are dealing with "equals/small adults" they aren't and they do not have the experience behind them to think like an adult.

So, to answer the pole, smaking is okay (but I don't agree with the leaving a mark).

Ok, so lets just say they decide to make smacking illegal. So what about yelling at your kids? Will they outlaw that too? If they consider smacking as an abuse, then surely yelling would be considered a form of abuse too? I've seen Oprah do shows on different kinds of abuse. One was about verbal abuse, where a husband would always be yelling at the wife, putting her down, telling her she was worthless etc... Yet because the husband wasn't laying a finger on the wife, the wife didn't think of it as abuse.

I'm sure there are parents out there who have never smacked their kid, but instead, tell the kid they are a worthless piece of crap and they should never have been born. I consider this to be just as bad as physically harming a child.

Smacking a child can be done correctly, just like raising your voice to a child can be done correctly. Its the parents who take it too far and turn it into beating a child and verbal abusing a child who need to be told its not OK.

Quoted from Simpson

.

Smacking a child can be done correctly

it can ? please lighten us with you indepth knowledge of what is correct legally - not your version of what you think it should be.

If you have the knowledge of the correct way please share it so we can patent it.

I voted it's ok......but with reservations. Both my adult children were smacked when young although very rarely, I think by the shock of that occassional smack they realised just how wrong their actions had been & learnt to listen & obey Mum & Dad. The smack was just that an open handed smack on clothed buttocks, but most importantly it was delivered with a full explanation of what they had done wrong & why it was so, also we explained the implications on themselves & others by the wrong doing & how we hoped they would remember their embarrassment of their punishment & try better in future.
We must have done something right as our children are now 35 & 26 & are very caring responsible adults, & neither of them have given us any grief throughout their growing years. Our son often stateshow he intends raising his own children the same way, & our little 18mth old grandson gets a full explanation to what he's done wrong & why already.
We were very young parents & bought our children up in yes, the hippy era of the 70's, we also lived in a very drug cultural area when they were teenagers, neither succumbed to the temptation due to what I believe to be the time & effort myself & husband put into their education about drugs, life & discipline in their early years.
I firmly believe children need to be taught right from wrong from the start, a TAP on the bottom as young toddlers with full explanation as to why through to a smack on a clothes covered bottom as young children doesn't hurt. PROVIDING it isn't something done often so the child thinks nothing of it AND it IS accompanied with the reasons why & what for. If children are taught right from wrong in a responsible & caring way early in life they have more chance of growing into responible caring teenagers & adults knowing they are loved.
Please parents take time to talk to your children......and listen to them also.

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

it can ? please lighten us with you indepth knowledge of what is correct legally - not your version of what you think it should be.

If you have the knowledge of the correct way please share it so we can patent it.

Hah I'll say!

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

it can ? please lighten us with you indepth knowledge of what is correct legally - not your version of what you think it should be.

If you have the knowledge of the correct way please share it so we can patent it.

AllEycat
Get off your soapbox will you, every person that has given a reason as to why they think smacking a child is ok have given good reasons � all you seam to do is point out spelling mistakes and grammar issues with those who don�t follow your reasoning. If you noticed I've got the E now,   ::)
The sad thing is you give an example of child ABUSE and that�s what that was ABUSE not smacking. glenancer�s example on smacking a child look�s totally different to the picture you are painting.
Then you want a MAGIC formula to patent  ??)  The question is not what is legal and defining it, or what is abuse and defining it, but I think that every person that has answered �YES� is on the same wavelength and has the same idea as what they define as a smack.
I�m sure the question doesn�t say �Is Child Abuse OK�, I bet you there would not be one YES or DUNNO answer up there.
You even said yourself AllEycat
Quote  by you �there is absolutely nothing wrong with smacking a child to enforce the issue and i'm quiet sure that what is deemed abuse in relation to a smack is it cannot be above the shoulder. I was smacked when I was a child I don't see any issues with me ( some might disagree thou)  �

Are you saying that anything below the sholders is OK  :o

So if your saying that, and then your stating that a smack is abuse then therefore what you really are saying is that when you were smacked ( or by your thinking ABUSED ) you turned out ok, with no issues!  :-/

::) i didn't imply that smacking below the shoulder was ok i was pointing out what is deemed under the FaCTS consideration to start with.

My comment about what happened to me is my personal experience i made no link between the two.

As to my spelling - my user name is Alleycat - if your name was fred and I called you Peter it wouldn't be polite now would it?

Soapbox - hmm Im not standing on one at all so you are wrong in that assumption - I was a Paramedic for the best part of 11 Years I have seen more than I care to remember in that time, I base my thoughts on that experience - can you speak for that experience? I doubt it.

Simpson was pointing out that it can be done correctly - My point was that that for it to be correct it must be open to the public and be able to stand up in an Australian Court of law - it cannot at present and I doubt it ever will.

Hitting ,be it a finger poke in the chest or an open hand under law is assault its that clear no if no butts about it.

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

As to my spelling - my user name is Alleycat - if your name was fred and I called you Peter it wouldn't be polite now would it?

Soapbox - hmm Im not standing on one at all so you are wrong in that assumption - I was a Paramedic for the best part of 11 Years I have seen more than I care to remember in that time, I base my thoughts on that experience - can you speak for that experience? I doubt it.

With you username it was a simple miss of the 'e' key, :B there was nothing intentional
Although I am no paramedic, I was in the SES for the best part of 8yrs, I left after going to accident where 2 cars were playing chicken with one another, as a result of their idiot actions, a 3rd car with a family of 5 were victims, the father and a boy of 7 were killed. The mother the 5yr old daughter and the 12yr old daughter, who through her injuries sustained, lives in wheel chair and has the mind of a 2 year old, are the only ones that survived, the thing that tore me up was when I had to ride back with one of the ambo�s to the hospital with the 5yr old, she was hysterical asking me where her daddy was and wanting him, one of the hardest things I has to do was lie to that girl and tell her that her daddy was ok and not to worry and get better, so no I can�t speak about your experiences, but I have seen my fair share of tragedy.
Your example was a parent loosing control and assaulting the child, mine was drivers speeding loosing control. 2 totally different situations, but the same result, people loosing control.

So if someone says, I smacked the child across the bum and explained why he/she received that punishment with a level head as explained by glenancer. I would not say you are NOT abusing your child.
If however someone says, I didn�t realize I hit him/her so hard, or I didn�t know, or I couldn�t help it he/she just wouldn�t shut up. Then I would say your sick and you ARE abusing your child. :(

Makes sense marvin; but still I don't agree with smacking.

When you smack your child its usually cause you have run out of patience. By acting in this manner you are showing your child that youve lost control of the situation and that is the way to handle it - with violence.
As SuziH says in her post, take something away from them - t.v or computer priviledges, pocket-money, gound them even. This will allow the child to actually sit down and think about what they did wrong. It also encourages the child to use their own powers of reasoning, which is instrumental in raising a well adjusted human being. :) :)

Smacking never harmed me or my siblings and none of us has done drugs or been in prison :P Mind you we were only ever smacked if we were cheeky or back chatted or caused physical harm to a sibling. My parents taught us right from wrong from a young age but they also had the "children should be seen not heard" mentality of that generation so we were raised to be quiet. A smack from mum hurt our pride more than the actual physical hurt. And quite often a glare from mum threatening a smack was enough to pull us up. I can recall my Dad only smacked me twice in my entire life (always a whack with his hand on my open palm and it always hurt like hell!) The reason for those two smacks was because I had physically hurt my sister twice ie caused bleeding lol.

I'm 11 and have been smacked by people before.They do it because they think i've been bad but its usually my horrible sister doing bad stuff and saying it was me.I hate being smacked.Parents are unaware that there are other ways to deal with a naughty child or do they just like hurting us? :'(

Ahaha it's always the sister! Is she younger? Mine is and she is sooo arrogant sometimes!! :P
I always got in trouble because of her!

Quoted from dara

Ahaha it's always the sister! Is she younger? Mine is and she is sooo arrogant sometimes!! :P
I always got in trouble because of her!

Yep, shes younger

Quoted from maddys

I'm 11 and have been smacked by people before.They do it because they think i've been bad but its usually my horrible sister doing bad stuff and saying it was me.I hate being smacked.Parents are unaware that there are other ways to deal with a naughty child or do they just like hurting us? :'(

I really don't feel like logging out to check, but I think it's likely that if you check the forum rules upon signing up that you're actually 13 and said 11 on accident.
If your real name is Norman I'll be embarrased.

THERE'S FORUM RULES :o

Quoted from maddys

I'm 11 and have been smacked by people before.They do it because they think i've been bad but its usually my horrible sister doing bad stuff and saying it was me.I hate being smacked.Parents are unaware that there are other ways to deal with a naughty child or do they just like hurting us? :'(

Can you please confirm your TRUE age, Maddys, forum rules are you MUST be 13 or over to be a member..

:o :-/ They do? OMG I am too young! ::)
No... really. Can't it stand on merit and the maturity of the posts? Defer to Admin or Devman on this one (what I always do when I don't want to be the baddie)!

Maddys has always said that she's 11. But I think we can make an exception, although she should control the number of threads that she randomly creates (e.g. the "sexy love" poll). ::)

But if you wanna give her (and Norman) the boot, I'm all for that too. :D

you don't need to ban her!!
she isn't doing anything bad and it's not like... well I dunno but I dont think she needs to be banned.. and those threads make me laugh!!
and anyway if she goes that means me and nannyfan are the youngest again! :O :( :P
lol

Hey, I'm just kidding around lol ;)

Except for the Norman bit. :D

well as a father of 5 kids i have used smacking as a form of discipline on our older children (10,8, and 6) the younger 2 do not get smacked as they are not aware of what they are doing wrong.. as for the older 3, they are given 3 warnings for something they are doing wrong, if after that they continue to misbehave they are smacked on the bum (with reasonable force, no marks or welts are left) and sent to their room for 10 minutes...
now with this procedure having been used for the last 4 years or so with the eldest. taking things off them, explaining to them that what they are doing is wrong and what can happen if they continue to not listen just does not work.. the only way that they will calm down and start to behave is to smack them on the bum and send them off to their room.... thats not to say that all children are like this..
if we could get them to behave without force or punishment we would but in the current situation this is not possible...
and as a result of the kids being punished.. DoCS are involved and we have a date in court today. all because our 8 year old went to schoool and said he had been smacked and locked in his room for 10 minutes (Because the teacher asked him how he got a bruise on his arm, which was not related to him being smacked) ... his teacher then reported this to docs and all our kids were taken into the office and interrogated by SOCA (SEXUAL OFFENCES SQUAD FOR CHILDREN) who told them how they are smacked and sent to their room. we the next day had to take them for an examination by a forensic doctor who laughed at us and said i see no reason as to why u are here as the bruise they are saying you have caused is about a week old and was not caused by a person, more likely to be a school yard incident. after checking the rest of his body found no evidence of physical abuse or the likes and was happy that we done nothing wrong.

HOWEVER DoCS didnt agree and have now made an application for a protection order against us that we have to defend in court with no proof against us of any wrong doing.

its cost me money for time off work to attend places at their request (appointments with docs, forensic doctors, legal fees etc etc) but will i get anything back from them?? doubt it
just some moron working for the government on a power trip with nothing better to do... her words and i quote 'WE HAVE PUT U ABOVE EVERYONE ONE THE LIST AS A PRIORITY' How is this right when their are kids in much much worse situations with no docs involvement... drug addicts, people who actually do abuse their kids.... all they have done in this situation is given the kids an easy way out, typical. as someone has already said whats to now stop them from going to school and saying that something worse has happened when it hasnt, simply becasue they dont get away with misbehaving..

The kids last week spoke with a lawer that we found to speak on their behalf... keeping in mind we have had no contact with this lawer and have told the kids to tell the truth at all times as we feel we have done nothing wrong... after this we spoke with him and were told that you have nothing to worry about as the kids know that their behaviour is bad and that when they are smacked it is only with moderate force... their words were... if dad smacked us as hard as he could we would get hurt badly as he is big and strong.....
so i better go get some sleep as court is in 8 hours time so ill let you know how this all goes.
And for the record... their has also been no police charges laid even though docs have involved them a few times and docs threatened me with being charged with child abuse... Police have refused to lay any charges as they feel we have done nothing wrong so what gives docs the right to take it into their own hands....
just my 2 cents worth....
Mantaw......

Quoted from Sillygostly

Hey, I'm just kidding around lol ;)

Except for the Norman bit. :D

Just remember who the Mod here is! >:(

As for Mantaw, very sorry and jointly annoyed with you at the DoCS. I've heard previous stories about them taking the law into their own hands and wanting to play God over all. There should be some kind of review into this, that is just disgraceful. And yes, they should pay more attention to the homeless youth that live in the cities and actually need help... plus the many that are abused y their parents.

Wow, that's really awful, Mantaw. It's really unfortunate when an entire family suffers just because the morons at the DoCS are too stubborn to admit they're wrong. Hypocrites. Somebody should take THEM away.

Quoted from normangerman

Just remember who the Mod here is! >:(

Oh, so you're threatening me now? Don't make me refer you to the admin muahahaha. :D

Quoted from Sillygostly

Oh, so you're threatening me now? Don't make me refer you to the admin muahahaha. :D

Oh please, don't get all "antony" or "TSS" on me :P

Quoted from normangerman

Oh please, don't get all "antony" or "TSS" on me :P

OK . . the 'kids' got a smack! . .right here. :P :D

Quoted from normangerman

Oh please, don't get all "antony" or "TSS" on me :P

Oh lord no, I'd hate to interrupt. :P

If they are being little b******s belt them I say

Edited by SuziH. This is a family friendly forum where some of our members are quite young and very valuable members here.

Quoted Text

As for Mantaw, very sorry and jointly annoyed with you at the DoCS. I've heard previous stories about them taking the law into their own hands and wanting to play God over all. There should be some kind of review into this, that is just disgraceful.

There is a review process through the NSW Ombudsmans office.

Quoted Text

they should pay more attention to the homeless youth that live in the cities and actually need help... plus the many that are abused by their parents

With all due respect to Mantaw, if they ignored this case, and later something did arise from it, DoCS would be raked over the coals for not acting sooner.

They are basically people in a no win situation, severely under-resoursed and stretched to the max.

Personally tho, I'm against smaking, as many have said I don't think it harmed me, but it did harm my brother, who had a very different personality.

If you can discipline your children without smaking I think everybody would fare better. And I do mean discipline, children do need to learn that actions have consequences, just not sure that the consequences have to be violence, or being locked in dark rooms or other psychologically damaging forms.

Quoted from Aingel

If you can discipline your children without smaking I think everybody would fare better. And I do mean discipline, children do need to learn that actions have consequences, just not sure that the consequences have to be violence, or being locked in dark rooms or other psychologically damaging forms.

Here, here!

(clap) (clap)

omg :o almost double of you think its okay to smack ... tisk tisk

Quoted from Paula

I was smacked as a child. There's a big difference between a smack on the bum and child abuse though.

I definitely agree with the comment here about a big difference to a smack on the bum and child abuse.

The law is very unclear on what is reasonable and what isnt though.

If the law were to be changed how could it be policed?

(I am currently working on this issue for my study)...

Quoted from concernedparent

I definitely agree with the comment here about a big difference to a smack on the bum and child abuse.

The law is very unclear on what is reasonable and what isnt though.

If the law were to be changed how could it be policed?

Good points . . I laugh at the folly of parents out in public who bend down to 'reason' with an 18 month old having a temper tantrum. Then 5 mins later that same 'brat' is being given a chocolate or treat (to shut him up) ::) at the check-out counter.

As for the Law . . what an a** . . police can't even keep up with law changes let alone police this ridiculous idea. They should be out there stopping hoon drivers, bank robbers, drug dealers and murderers and not following the majority of parents to prosecute a smack on the bum.

It has made me look at the stories where Childrens Services (term used loosly) have put an 'at risk' child back into a dysfuncional family only to have it die . . and removed well cared for babes because they deem them 'at risk'
for some reason. Bureaucracy is too heavy now and makes too many mistakes with what they have to do . . lets not add to that burden.

What is �reasonable�?

What is reasonable to some is not necessarily reasonable to others - this also applies to the value judgement of police officers and the judiciary. This quandary has also been a sore point in many other judgements and sentencing cases. Regardless of your crime, your day in court will have different outcomes depending on the residing judge. The same applies to child abuse.

A disciplinary smack is different to a punishing smack. In the later the parent/guardian is deliberately trying to cause pain whereas in the former, it is a measured response designed to reinforce the negative outcomes or undesirable behaviour. Determining one or the other, as a third party, is not easy.

The real problem is that anyone can become a parent regardless of their suitability for such responsibility.

Smacking is fine...we were smacked as kids...I would probably do the same to my kids if they needed discipline

I have worked along side DCD (which is DoCS in wa) for many years and they are under staffed under funded over worked and under appreciated. I would definitely have to say they are much more likely to err in the opposite direction that is to say that children who should be removed don't get removed, because of the sheer number of procedures that MUST be followed in order to remove a child from an abusive situation. I find it incredibly difficult to believe this situation where ALL your children got removed when one had A bruise. The school would of had a history of previous cases of incidences, before any professional contacts DCD they must have more than one sign of child abuse which would include not only physical signs but emotional signs as well, and oh yes they are there. I work in a company that works regularly with abused children the signs are all very similar and common. Teachers are now trained to recognise the signs of abuse. Whilst we don't have it here yet I believe NSW is mandatory reporting, therefore the teacher must report abuse or risk their job and criminal proceedings.
Now as for the subject of smacking:
I do not and never have never will spank my child, I believe that parents do have a choice and I work in social services(i'm a youth worker) I was badly abused as a child and refuse to inflict any pain on my daughter at all. I am firm with discipline and while we do have our normal tantrums like all kids do for the most part she is a sweet, smart loving girl. I do not see the point in smacking. After all how would you react if your child walked up and hit another child because your child did not like what they were doing?? Would you smack your child for doing that? I also always thought the hitting of inanimate objects by toddlers really odd. As in when they fall down parents hit the floor and say naughty floor and eventually the child emulates this behavior? Whilst I'm not by any means saying that smacked children become serial killers or criminals , I feel violence is never a solution and its very hard to teach our children this if WE use it as a form of discipline. After all as an adult if you were to be "naughty" and break the law do the police come and hit you??? No they arrest you and put you in prison or lock up depending on the severity of the crime. I see that as much more similar to a "time out" situation. After all isn't our job as parents to raise good people who will become good adults. I know my past and the present job i do makes an impact on my decision regarding this. I do see severe cases of child abuse on a daily basis but I am more than capable of differentiating between abuse and smacking.
Also as I previously mentioned I was "smacked" as a child although our smacking involved a leather belt, other times it was much worse. I would like to point out personally this did not turn me into a better person far from it. I was a terrible teenager (hence my job now) I was involved in drugs, crime, homeless, sexually active at 13. I stopped caring what punishment i would get, I stopped caring about myself. In fact I spent a lot of time doing things just to piss my father off. So to think that any physical violence is the way to get "teenagers these days" to behave you are so far from having any resemblance of a clue.

Quoted from kaliha

... So to think that any physical violence is the way to get "teenagers these days" to behave you are so far from having any resemblance of a clue.

Well how rude are you? ??)

For your information, I was smacked (not beaten) as a child and am a well adjused adult and was the same as a teenager. I'd suggest that your behaviour as a teenager had more to do with moral standards than anything else.

Quoted from kaliha

{edited}

I work in social services(i'm a youth worker) I was badly abused as a child

Are there any youth workers who have not been abused?
It is a sad indictment of the youth system to have abuse victims/survivors
as case workers, they have too many issues. Your post shows signs of being a ramble too, I wonder what it would be like to be one of your charges? :B

DALE: I say "spare the rod and spoil the child."
HANK: Dale, "spare the rod and spoil the child" means you're in favour of spanking.
DALE: *pauses* I don't think so.

Couldn't resist. :P

I'd like to add my own observations to this issue, and no I'm not a parent.

1) If you wouldn't hit an animal, why hit a child?
2) Any unwanted form of touch is defined as assault. You don't necessarily have to hit them. (This applies to adults as well as children/minors)

Yes, I am against smacking children, in fact smacking anyone. Having said that, if I'm completely honest, there are some people I would dearly love to throttle if they annoy me. Also, sometimes, in the case of very young children, a light tap on the bottom is OK to educate them about dangerous situations (ie running onto a busy road or playing near a hot stove)

Smacking is not OK as a means of controlling anyone. Admittedly, there are badly behaved children, however sometimes punishment is used as a measure because of ones perception of bad behaviour.

well said BabyKitty...

and I'm shocked that the Ok votes are leading this poll (allthumbs)

Obviously trolls! I cannot see any of the regular members/posters voting that way, I hope! :(

I didn't remember the topic being here, but when it got bumped it made me think back to smacking my daughter when she was ... I don't remember how old, but I took this big back-swing like she really needed to learn a lesson, then swung my arm sort of at a normal speed and slowed it down to a light tap.  I don't think she could even tell through her nappy that I'd touched her at all.  My wife broke composure, as we were trying to get across that she was doing something that wasn't acceptable, and laughed at me hysterically.

Apart from that I've smacked her twice that I can remember, and I don't remember what for.  My wife has lost control a handful of times.  We've found, both now and when she was much younger... like 18 months when I first tried I think, that time outs are incredibly effective providing they understand why.  Kids don't always have the capacity to understand why they're disciplined and once they do have capacity, they can easily lose that capacity once their distressed, offended, or whatever, from the discipline itself so its important to try to do it in a way that they can understand afterward.

So far, the big problem that I can see which people fall into is not having the initial patients to ignore a lot of crying and/or temper tantrums, acting back at it in some way shape or form (hitting in the case discussed here) and then compensating for that behaviour so their kid doesn't think they are unloved, but it ends up teaching the child that if they complain enough, they can get what they want and in some cases that might involved being smacked... far from an ideal way to build an ongoing relationship with a child.

Something that made a lot of sense when put into words, that I was told recently, also, is that punishing a child for something one day and then being too lazy to bother the next is obviously couterproductive because the message a kid gets is ... well it has to be clear, and kids are going to be selfish and probably wont learn from a half measure but will simply learn that its a gamble... they'll understand that and still take the gamble of how a parent will react rather than thinking "I shouldn't do this."

I've smacked my daughter a couple times, and I've watched parents fall into counterproductive behaviours of going from one extreme to the other, anger and than compensating for acting out on it.  As for smacking itself, it doesn't really seem to be the way to go at this point in time with my daughter turning 3 soon, and when I have done it, it wasn't the way to go.

In answer to the question about it being okay or not, I don't know.  I don't feel its okay for me.  I've seen it happen where I didn't feel it was okay or was at the very least overdone.  I know some parents that seem to have good logic behind parenting that involves occasional smacking, though I'm not around enough to have an opinion on it.  They also have more kids than I can imagine handling myself, which is part of why I wonder if its more forgivable or justifiable in some way in their particular case.

This thread is old... I'll have to come back and see if I've posted before.  It will be interesting to see how my attitude would have changed or stayed the same.

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