Although, it's apparent that the Iraq war has been one of the biggest follies. I thought we might move more into U.S. politics for a bit.
With the recent pardon of Libby from prison term, is Bush really getting to the point where he just doesn't care? Is his arrogance going to grow as we get closer to the end of his term?
For those of you who would like a recap of these recent events:
I closed this topic because things were getting too personal; let's debate the issues without the snide and (to me) offensive comments please.
Signed: Annoyed Labour voter.
leftwing generalisation, how so?
Howard stands on his pulpit preaching this nation was built upon Judeo-Christian values. I stated that I don't see this values on display in his "war for oil" which has killed so many people.
In fact nothing Howard does displays any good values whatsoever let alone Judeo-Christian ones.
How is that leftwing generalisation? What is so offensive to you?
I didn't think you were a Howard apologist nor do you support the war. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
Quoted from vecordious
Although, it's apparent that the Iraq war has been one of the biggest follies. I thought we might move more into U.S. politics for a bit.
With the recent pardon of Libby from prison term, is Bush really getting to the point where he just doesn't care? Is his arrogance going to grow as we get closer to the end of his term?
Yep, Johnny's exactly the same. Obviously Bush doesn't care because he's leaving at the end of this term and he doesn't care about his legacy or the Republicans getting back into power.
Johnny on the other, couldn't care less about the Liberal Party but wants to beat Menzies' record so isn't burning all his bridges just yet. But the stunning revelation this week as to why we went to Iraq: to secure oil supplies, was beyond arrogant even for John Howard. He is so arrogant and high on his absolute power that either he doesn't care about the public reaction or he knows the public don't care about Iraq/Iraqis. Either way it's beyond belief.
The reason for the entry into Iraq was always clearly about oil. If they cared about the locals and a growing refugee problem then they would have been in Sudan and Dafur just as quickly, but there is no oil in Dafur, just refugees by the millions.
...and quite a bit in the Sudan, which China is actively getting involved with, having 1000s of Chinese oil workers there.
The difference is these oil supplies are minuscule compared to Iraq's (the second largest reserves in the world with the potential for undiscovered reserves taking it to the largest). Also these African oil supplies are Swiss and Chinese controlled respectively so it will be hard for the US to justify an invasion and then kick out the existing foreign oil companies. On the other hand Saddam's oil was fully state owned and run, so the US could justify the take over on the grounds of privatisation, which is exactly what they did.
If you don't believe Iraq was about oil then how come the Iraqi government is about to table the Hydrocarbon law, which was written in the US by the Bush administration, and which hands over full sovereignty of Iraq's oil to Haliburton in a sharing arrangement that is the most generous ever given to a private company in history. Basically it is a licence for Haliburton to rip off Iraqi oil in perpetuity.
Anyway Brendan Nelson let the cat out of the bag well and truly, and it made headlines around the world, including a rebuke from Iraq. As much as the government has gone into damage control over this and has now attempted to retract the statement, Brendan told the truth and let slip classified papers he has seen on this, and nothing can pull that back.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
Being pedantic does not become you. Of course there is (some) oil on Africa and because it cannot be USA controlled means exactly what I said . There is no (American interest) oil there. If you scratch the surface of any country you will find miniscule oil reserves but making them pay is an entirely new matter. G.W.B and J.H pretend noble motives to enter Iraq to help the locals get stable government but when they have failed those places are left with population migration of refugees my the millions. That is what the Sudan and Dafur result has been. So it proves people are not Howards and Bushes main concern.
Being pedantic does not become you. Of course there is (some) oil on Africa and because it cannot be USA controlled means exactly what I said . There is no (American interest) oil there. If you scratch the surface of any country you will find miniscule oil reserves but making them pay is an entirely new matter. G.W.B and J.H pretend noble motives to enter Iraq to help the locals get stable government but when they have failed those places are left with population migration of refugees my the millions. That is what the Sudan and Dafur result has been. So it proves people are not Howards and Bushes main concern.
Sorry I was not being pedantic at all but just replying to exactly what you stated.
You did not state American oil interest in your post, but point blank said "there is no oil in Dafur", when in fact there is an economically viable supply of oil there. It is only miniscule in comparison with Saudi Arabia and Iraq, not with other fields around the world.
Again not being pedantic, but us post readers are not mind readers, so I did not know you were inferring there was (some) oil, "and because it cannot be USA controlled means exactly what I said." Sorry that is not exactly what you said at all. I can only reply and debate on the points made in posts, not what the poster is inferring in their own mind but not putting down.
Dafur has enough oil that a foreign country is willing to send a thousand workers there to extract and ship it. That is not some miniscule amount and now that Peak Oil is occurring it becomes even more important.
On your GWB and Howard sentiments I fully agree.
There is an excellent debate doing the rounds on Australia becoming a complete satellite of the US. This is being borne out by Howard signing up to Bush's nuclear pact, yet we are the only non-nuclear country in the pact, meaning that US has plans for us to enrich uranium here and the dump the rest of the world's nuclear waste here.
It is no coincidence that the Alice to Darwin railway was built and is owned by Haliburton in a non-contest tender, and they have been given extraordinary leeway in running it. Then you cannot ignore the fact the land taken from the Aboriginals is in exactly the areas that have been slated as the best in the world for nuclear waste dumps, and coincide with the route of the Haliburton railway.
It was also borne out by a high ranking US Pentagon official stating that Australia needs to be more forefront in promoting US interests in this region, and must allow more US basing and facilities in Australia. America is massively expanding the Guam military base, is going to build 2 military bases in Australia's north and is asking for more military presence here as it spearheads into the Asian region.
Then there is the fact that US officials visited Christmas Island where our government built a $500 million dollar "detention centre" (that wiped out a great chunk of habitat for a rare bird only found on Christmas Island), which stands mostly empty. What has the US to do with our refugee detention centres and why must we get their permission and oversight in building one. Because it is not just a detention centre but another off-shoring of US imprisonment out of any jurisdiction. This is also reinforced by the fact the US also plans to build an Army base on Christmas Island.
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Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
It is no coincidence that the Alice to Darwin railway was built and is owned by Haliburton in a non-contest tender, and they have been given extraordinary leeway in running it. Then you cannot ignore the fact the land taken from the Aboriginals is in exactly the areas that have been slated as the best in the world for nuclear waste dumps, and coincide with the route of the Haliburton railway.
Well tell me who else quoted for the job of building the railway. Don't you like it . Does it not meet your specifications for a rail link. How the hell do you know they didn't deserve the job through sheer professionalism.
Also the land is everybody's, not just the aboriginals. I find nothing more racist than being told land ownership is determined by race in Australia. It is the year 2007 get with it.
Nothing has been slated as a nuclear waste dump. I have heard this rumor before and it was from some freak on a ABC debate show with Jeff Mc Mullen. Obviously you need more impartial sources for your story's.
Why is everything a friggin conspiracy to you!
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” ~ Winston Churchill
Last night I started a full reply with links and sources ready to go and then thought stuff it, why should I post anything in reply to you TPO, as it doesn't matter as you are so locked into your narrow minded blind belief in Howard and his government nothing I say will make an ounce of difference.
I'm just so glad as more and more of Howard's lies and deceits are being revealed (Tampa and his drafting of WorkChoices being the latest), from what I'm reading across the boards and newspaper opinion pieces, the Howard huggers like you are mostly silent because they can no longer defend their tarnished hero.
I have always said that history will show Howard for the true little deceptive and lying man he is, I just didn't think it would be so soon. Then I read yesterday that a publisher has 6 more books in the wind, all exposing aspects of Howard's real personality and the deceits he has perpetrated over his political career.
You just continue in you blind belief, the Howards of the world just love unthinking followers like you, and put everything down to conspiracy even when eventually the records and history show otherwise. I'm just grateful that your kind of blind ideological belief and herd mentality is a dying mindset. Howard's years of now exposed deceit and dishonesty is engendering one good thing amongst Australian people, and even the unquestioning pro-Howard media, and that is the death of blind belief and faith in a leader just because things appear to be going well. Always question government and always hold them to account for everything they do, that goes for all parties. Howard thought himself unaccountable so thought he could do and say anything with impunity, but he is finding out that even he is not immune from the bullshit meter.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
There is an excellent debate doing the rounds on Australia becoming a complete satellite of the US. This is being borne out by Howard signing up to Bush's nuclear pact, yet we are the only non-nuclear country in the pact, meaning that US has plans for us to enrich uranium here and the dump the rest of the world's nuclear waste here.
It's not just that. There was an article some time ago in the SMH about Sydney University getting a whole lot of funding for their "U.S study center". I can't find the article now (of course), but I'll keep looking. The last thing we need is for them to weasel their way into our education system as well.
In heaven, there are no interesting people - Nietzsche
You just continue in you blind belief, the Howards of the world just love unthinking followers like you...I'm just grateful that your kind of blind ideological belief and herd mentality is a dying mindset.
"Howard hugger" - I like that one. They do stick awefully close to his bosom don't they? Or is it somewhere down the other end they're close to
I honestly thought we Australians were beyond blind belief and sheepism (coined by x452) but the Howard years has me gobb-smacked. How embarrassing! Perhaps Keating was right when he called the Australian public a bunch of idiots for voting for John Howard. I thought it harsh at the time but it appears he was spot on. Alas, it is not too late to "un-idiotise" ourselves and rid this great nation of the greatest blight on this nation - John Winston Howard. Are you with me people?
Question: What makes a Howard hugger different to a follower of Osama Bin-Laden or any other fundamentalist leader?
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