I'll get back and answer some of the points later, but have to say I just cannot believe the way Howard but especially Downer are couching the UK troop withdrawals (or draw downs as they are calling them).
Basically they are couching it as a victory for the COW as things are going so well in Basra and the other areas the UK has responsibility for, and they have done such a good job of training the Iraqis, they can now hand over large areas to them meaning they can draw down their troop commitments.
Absolute bullshit.
It is because around a year or so ago the British troops could walk around Southern Iraq without any helmets, flak jackets and relaxed but because of the US's heavy handed tactics that continually killed many innocents and started turning friendly Iraqis hostile, the Brits told the US they were being too heavy handed. Also the fact that US firms were stealing billions from the Iraqi people was leaving a sour taste towards all Westerners. So having taken 3 years to garner Iraqi support and friendship they saw it all stripped away, and like the Americans started regularly having troops killed and injured. This became untenable so they told the US they have planned a phased withdrawal with the eventual aim of having all their combat troops out of Iraq.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
I'll get back and answer some of the points later, but have to say I just cannot believe the way Howard but especially Downer are couching the UK troop withdrawals (or draw downs as they are calling them).
Basically they are couching it as a victory for the COW as things are going so well in Basra and the other areas the UK has responsibility for, and they have done such a good job of training the Iraqis, they can now hand over large areas to them meaning they can draw down their troop commitments.
Absolute bullshit.
It is because around a year or so ago the British troops could walk around Southern Iraq without any helmets, flak jackets and relaxed but because of the US's heavy handed tactics that continually killed many innocents and started turning friendly Iraqis hostile, the Brits told the US they were being too heavy handed. Also the fact that US firms were stealing billions from the Iraqi people was leaving a sour taste towards all Westerners. So having taken 3 years to garner Iraqi support and friendship they saw it all stripped away, and like the Americans started regularly having troops killed and injured. This became untenable so they told the US they have planned a phased withdrawal with the eventual aim of having all their combat troops out of Iraq.
In a BBC article dated November 22 2006 It stated that British forces were confident of troop withdrawals in the spring of 2007 (April-May) this latest development would seem consistent with what they have been saying for 4 months. The article said that only some of the troops would be leaving not all. What is happening in Basra was timetabled and Im not sure why it came as a massive shock.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” ~ Winston Churchill
Yes but that is half the story. This is the first phase of a complete troop withdrawal by the British by the end of 2008 early 2009. The second phase will have 2500-3000 troops leaving by the end of this year and then the lot will leave.
Nelson was boasting this morning they have been working on this with the Brits for four months now. They are also putting a well rehearsed spin on it that Cheney almost word for word also came out with this morning. The British haven't said anywhere near the same thing.
Make no mistake he British are leaving because they have been shat upon by the US from the very start of this debacle and more often than not have been left hung out to dry. For the first 12 to 18 months or so the Brits were walking around Southern Iraq without helmets of flak jackets, but when the American got overly heavy handed and started turning once moderate and friendly Iraqis against all Westerners, this was the moment the British decided to get out.
Brit soldiers were walking around with T-shirts that had on the back a the union jack on one side and the stars and stripes on the other, with the words "I'm with Stupid" between them and an arrow pointing to the stars and stripes. That is what they thought of the Americans handling of the Iraqi situation.
No make no bones about it, the Brits are not getting out because Southern Iraq is now a peaceful haven of Western loving Iraqis that can look after their own affairs. They are getting out because they've had enough of the abysmal handling of the situation in Iraq by the US and they can see the surge (which the UK has been against) failing and don't want any part of it. Btw the Danes and Lithuanians are also pulling out with the Brits, but are going to provide civilian support to the Iraqis, which is exactly what Rudd is proposing.
The advice the Brits have gotten both from their own strategists and directly from those in Iraq, including senior Iraqi army personnel, is that it was determined the British were actually doing more harm than good and it was better to pull out and leave the Iraqi army to sort it out, whether that fails or not.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
The Brits wont be going far any way as they have committed more troops to Afghanistan. This will take the number of Brits there to 5700.
If the U.N soldiers did more than stand around and smoke cigarettes maybe these guys could go home. I know what you think of the yanks but at least they try to do what they say they are going to do. Unlike Iraq, the U.N went into Afghanistan like everyone else, but from all reports they dont seem to keen to do any Taliban hunting.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” ~ Winston Churchill
The Brits wont be going far any way as they have committed more troops to Afghanistan. This will take the number of Brits there to 5700.
If the U.N soldiers did more than stand around and smoke cigarettes maybe these guys could go home. I know what you think of the yanks but at least they try to do what they say they are going to do. Unlike Iraq, the U.N went into Afghanistan like everyone else, but from all reports they dont seem to keen to do any Taliban hunting.
What a load of crap. The UN are in the thick of it in Afghanistan (and taking causalities, some more just yesterday) after the Americans abandoned it when they said they had instilled a model (read puppet) democracy in Hamid Karzai, that really only extended to the centre of the CBD in Kabul.
Again it was the UN who told America that they had to look at Afghanistan and not Iraq, which the US promptly ignored as they are the heroes of the world and know everything plus are always right (its our way or no way).
It is the UN who are setting up for a Spring offensive against a resurgent Taliban and al-Qaida, resurgent because the US fucked up big time and went after oil in Iraq instead of hunting Osama then instilling a real democracy and peace in Afghanistan. It is the UN there who are getting the US out of the s**t at the moment.
The Brits are now doing the right thing in going to Afghanistan and when they finally beat the Taliban and al-Qaida there they can rub it in the Bush administration's noses (diplomatically of course). It is what Australia should have done from the very start. When NZ had a few hundred troops in Afghanistan we had one, friggin' one because Howard got down on his hands and knees to lick Bush's boots and sent our troops into a fools errand. The results are there for all to see with every historian and think tank, even many conservative ones, saying Afghanistan and Iraq are the greatest foreign disasters by the US and Australia in history.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
I was only conveying what was is quite available on the net and has been suggested by many political analysts including the one on my local am breakfast show in Adelaide. I have heard them being described as the Toyota taliban and seen various reports of frustration by their constant inaction. There have been many instances around the world where people in blue helmets do nothing. Failures in Somalia and even East Timor to disarm militia Are just a few.
Im not anti U.N I just think good intentions get lost by there constant bickering with each other. Im sure they have many good ideas on how to improve Afghanistan but you cant blame America for everything that isnt acheived.I havent heard you utter one positive that they have acheived because Im sure American politics represents hate to you no matter what anybody says. Still no word from you on the peaceful outcome in N.Korea by those sabre rattling warmongers from America. It doesnt register with you because that would be an admission of success.
One the other shoe the humanitarian work the U.N do, and the endless amount of horror they witness and clean up is commendable. Their good intentions arent on trial with me just their willingness to back up their own rhetoric when their own resolutions are broken
If you are trying to upset me and make me bite with youre left wing bias, im afraid you will be disappointed. Not every one has to agree with you. I will stand behind my words and provide evidence and a plausible reason as to why I feel exactly how I feel.
I think you would find im actually quite a big libertarian on most issues but nobody cares about that, they base who you are on where you stand on the war on terror. I am pro choice, I support gay marriage, but what I do care about is if some religous radical tries to blow up their wedding because they dont like what they stand for. I find youre attitude just as polarizing as someone on the extreme right.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” ~ Winston Churchill
This is for everyone who hates on america and its soldiers.....Dont cry when you need someone to stand up for you one day when you and your weak minded friends cant stand up for yourselves. Because its america that ends up standing up and paying the bloody price in the end, no matter how many whining losers there are around the world complaining about this or that. The cold hard facts are that without good old american boys going out and dying for you whining gits, and your right to say what you like and live how you see fit, then you'd be speaking german, japanese, or russian. And guess what? You'd probably end up in a death camp if you whined about your life under them as much as you complain about the USA. So get a little perspective and try and have a little respect for a change.
Who are these whining losers that hate the US and her soldiers?
You just who are they, good point? I have served with them, trained with them, worked with them, been on their warships and bases and have the greatest respect for them. It is not the US military that is the problem but the people who make the policies and control them who are.
As to talking German or Japanese or whatever. Take a reality check. Until it effected the US directly America was more than willing to allow Germany and Japan to go on their merry way. Just as the US has always done they were more willing to deal economically and diplomatically with a Hitler dominated Europe and a Japanese dominated Asia-Pacific. It was only when America was attacked and it started hurting them economically did they step in.
Also what about the US invasions and foreign interference over the last decade and a half in countries who have not wanted America to step in, yet they did anyway and in most cases have made things much worse?
What about all the dictators (like Saddam once) that America still supports and actually gives aid to as they kill, torture and oppress their peoples?
Isn't it very telling that Zimbabwe has no oil, yet by all measures Mugabe is worse than Saddam yet America refuses to go in and help the Zimbabwians even thought they are begging for America to do so, yet the Iraqis actually begged the Americans not to invade?
....and too much more to put down. You make the mistake of generalising too much without looking at the detail amsterdam. Look by an objective measure and you will plainly see America only ever does what is good for America, the use of the terms democracy, freedom and the other cliches are only excuses to that end.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
This is for everyone who hates on america and its soldiers.....Dont cry when you need someone to stand up for you one day when you and your weak minded friends cant stand up for yourselves. Because its america that ends up standing up and paying the bloody price in the end, no matter how many whining losers there are around the world complaining about this or that. The cold hard facts are that without good old american boys going out and dying for you whining gits, and your right to say what you like and live how you see fit, then you'd be speaking german, japanese, or russian. And guess what? You'd probably end up in a death camp if you whined about your life under them as much as you complain about the USA. So get a little perspective and try and have a little respect for a change.
Finally another voice! The yanks have been dying along side Aussies for years. People just don't get it.
A lot of these countries cant even afford to feed their own people but they have plenty of money to buy tanks and guns. They brainwash the population through censorship and an iron fist.
People on these pages are quick to point out the"folly of the US" but I dare you to find a thread with the title, "lets stand up to terrorism" or "the folly of radical islam". Why? I dont know why. Even as I write this I know my text will be cut up into quotes and they wont reply to my questions.
Harry S. Truman's popularity during the Korean war was lower than Bush's but with the benefit of heindsight he is regarded as one of the greatest presidents to have lived. It doesnt matter if you think we shouldnt be at war because our enemys will still be at war with us. Groups like Al Qaida and the Taliban remind us that you only fight wars to win.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” ~ Winston Churchill
You forget that America is the biggest arms trader in the world and the biggest producer of arms in the world.
You forget there were no terrorists in Iraq when they invaded.
You forget all the dictators America has supported and still supports.
You forget many of today's terrorists organisations were actually formed, armed and supported by the US when they suited their purposes for economic gain.
This thread is about the "Folly of the US" and there is plenty of it for all to see. If you want to start a thread on the "Folly of Radical Islam" or "Stand up to Terrorism" then there is nothing stopping you. I will be more than happy to add my two bobs worth in condemning radical Islam in that thread and my thoughts on standing up to terrorism and how we are going about it the wrong way in that thread.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
Dont cry when you need someone to stand up for you one day when you and your weak minded friends cant stand up for yourselves. ... The cold hard facts are that without good old american boys going out and dying for you whining gits
I move a motion to throw this chap into volcano for insulting us twice!
People on these pages are quick to point out the"folly of the US" but I dare you to find a thread with the title, "lets stand up to terrorism" or "the folly of radical islam".
Let's dispel a few false myths you're propagating:
We, the collective that oppose the Iraq war:
1. Do not support nor condone terrorism, in fact we condemn it unconditionally 2. Do not support nor condone radical Islam, in fact we condemn it unconditionally
So stop trying to be your average right-winger and quit the "your either with us or against us" argument. It's a dumb argument and most of us are smarter than that. Plus do you really want to parrot George Bush?
Secondly, we support what we stand for: justice and democracy. If we circumvent either of these then we have no right to preach this to anyone else. It would be like me having a messy lawn and lecturing my neighbour on why he should keep his lawn neat.
So stop trying to be your average right-winger and quit the "your either with us or against us" argument. It's a dumb argument and most of us are smarter than that.
What are you trying to say, I am dumb.
Are you in a university or some form of schooling? Because you sound like me when I used to be full of ........
May I suggest a trip to the red zone in Baghdad, so you can explore the town and maybe catch a taxi to market. Then you could go and stand on the rooftop of an empty warehouse that used to house the mustard gas,nerve agents sarin, tabun and VX just before bloody friday in a town called Halabja. Finally you could finish with a tour of one of saddams torture chambers and marvel at how barbaric it is compared to club med Guantanamo. I havent forgotten things like this and thats why I could care less about your endless tirade of verbal ennemas you call posts.
I support the war for different reasons than what you think! I am not a warmonger and with my hand on my heart tell you I want to see Iraq thrive and be peaceful.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” ~ Winston Churchill
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