Quoted from Simpson

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=127187

[i]Paedophile name and shame plan attacked
Saturday Sep 2 14:55 AEST

Publishing the names, photos and addresses of convicted paedophiles would drive offenders underground and make it harder for authorities to monitor them, the NSW Government says.

The NSW opposition has proposed a US-style "Megan's law" under which details of convicted paedophiles deemed at high risk of reoffending would be published on the internet.

If they are deemed high risk, they should not be let out of prison. The safety of children should be paramount.

Quoted Text

Opposition Leader Peter Debnam said families had a right to know if they were living near a convicted paedophile.

I agree.

Quoted Text

Adult paedophiles could not be rehabilitated and needed to be managed to make sure they do not reoffend, he said.

"This is a case of dealing with adult offenders, who I think it's generally agreed won't be rehabilitated. The question is how you manage them," Mr Debnam said.

We shouldn't need to manage them. It is time Civil Liberties were directed to the potential victims.

Quoted Text

Ms Johnston said all parents should assume there might be a paedophile in their neighbourhood and teach their children appropriate protective behaviour.

Paedophiles, however, are cunning enough to use tactics that overcome this teaching. Also, how many of us actually learn from other peoples experiences?

Viv

Definately should...

Its too big a risk not to identify them in society.

Seems some are answering out of ignorance at what is really being proposed and what is currently done with known paedophiles released into society.

First of all Megan's law (the public naming and informing neighbours of known peadophiles in the US) is a failure on nearly all fronts. So much so that two states (Hawaii and Alaska) have repealed the law and others are contemplating following suit.

The reason naming and shaming fails all over the world is that it does two things. First, vigilantes inevitably form to punish the paedophile, detroying their dwellings (which are mostly not theirs) and occassionally harming innocent people, even attacking the wrong person by mistake. The outing of paedophiles inevitably causes a bigger law and order headache for both the police and the people in the area than not outing them.

Secondly the paedophiles always go underground and disappear off the police's radar when they are publically named. All paepdophiles are tracked by police nationally in a child sex offender register. This mostly works because the paedophile believes they are anonymous when in fact nearly all their movements are continually monitored and they must report all major movements to the police. To fail to do so is to be immediately re-imprisoned. Naming and shaming just forces these people to go completely underground, drop off the child sex offender register and get new identities, which makes it much harder to find them and costs society a lot more in scarce police and financial resources.

Naming and shaming has failed everywhere else in the world so I don't know what magic bullet Debnam has that makes him believe it will work in NSW under his jurisdiction and where he plans to get all the extra money and police that will be required to bodyguard and track the shamed paedophile, just as much to protect the innocent public and property around the sex offender as the offender themselves.

For naming and shaming to work . . the criminal justice system would need to work to perfection. (good luck on that score)

This week there was a story from the US about a father killing a neighbour who his daughter reported had 'touched ' her. Dad just snapped and killed without a trial. That man may have been innocent!!. . now the daughter could have a guilty conscience for the rest of her life.  

The only way to protect society and keep the accused alive without costing the taxpayer billions is to build  cities where criminals live  . . like an open prison where they all work at jobs and pay their way  . . but in a 'gated city'.
They must  remain there for the protection of themselves and the community.
The only other alternative is to use the death penalty . . and a review of the prevalence of pornography  . .it is behind the growing phenomenon of 'street kidnapps' where women are being snatched off public streets and sexually assaulted by men and gangs who have been 'revved up' on disgusting films/photos that degrade women.

Is the community prepared to take a strong stand to protect the vulnerable in our society??. . I'm not holding my breath.  

Quoted from Simpson

Adult paedophiles could not be rehabilitated and needed to be managed to make sure they do not reoffend...

So what's the point in having these paedophiles around if they can't be rehabilitated? A farm dog who has a natural instinct to chase and kill sheep is immediatly shot. And lets face it, these men behave worse than animals...

Quoted Text

like an open prison where they all work at jobs and pay their way  . . but in a 'gated city'. They must  remain there for the protection of themselves and the community

That is called a community - maybe not the way you are refering too but it is one never the less.

Now,

i'm going to put a spanner in the works and this is hypothetical.

You have been convicted of a crime (serious) - you have done your time in a gaol, you have managed to increase your education and learnt a new career, been on your best behaviour whilst serving your time.

Do you think and feel that you can now contibute effectively in the society and then you find your details and picture plastered all over the community board at the local shop that you attend how would you feel ?

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

. . . . , been on your best behaviour whilst serving your time.

Do you think and feel that you can now contibute effectively in the society and then you find your details and picture plasted all over the community board at the local shop that you attend how would you feel ?

History shows that many offenders learn from gaol time. . but sex offenders seem to be different.
Many re-offend and even accepted therapies have only limited benefits.
I would not want my girls to live next door to one. . (leopards don't change their spots).

Maybe a file can be set up in Police Stations where people can go and have a look at anyone listed in their local area . . . they would have to show I.D before being shown the details (to prevent vigilante attacks)
It is an invasion of privacy and plain dangerous to use web pages to list everyone in Australia. . it does make them a target and could put innocent lives at risk if mistaken identity causes violence.

agree with your solution in regard to sex offenders. I feel however that the issue is deeper than just a registry.

Punishment should be harder in the first place - not the pathetic system we have now what benefit is tossing one in jail 2 years and be out in 6 months on good behaviour.

Child welfare service need to have a little more teeth and they should be involved a lot more in such cases currently they are not.

I have attended a number of cases during my time, and more often than not welfare services were not even notified or even attended. I find the system 'wanting'.

There is more than one victim in a child sex offence that people fail to see, granted the child is the first issue that has to be dealt with thats a matter of fact, however, you have to address the relatives , the police that attended,as well as the AOs  and as said prior the offender themselves.

I fail to see how a paedophile could be rehabilitated, short of giving them a lobotomy. They seem to be a "special" group of people who really, for whatever reason, are unable to mend their ways. Shoot them all. Why waste resources in trying to rehabilitate them.

The problem with the crimes these perverts do is the delayed reaction for the victim.

A 10 year old child is molested . .goes to the police. . and finally gets a court appearance (very bravely). . and the offender goes to gaol.
It does not matter whether he is in prison 6 months or 60 years. . the delayed trauma for the victim becomes more apparent as years pass.

A victim impact statement was handed to a court in just such a case many years ago . .and the tactless judge concluded that the victim was unlikely to suffer long term harm . .so all was good.  

Little did he understand that a 10 year old cannot manifest trauma of that type until they get into an adult relationship and after many years . . the old horrors  do arise in their memory.
Just like 'war veterans' trauma.
Trust issues, sexual dysfunction, relationship breakdowns and family upheaval are the later results of this kind of crime . .it just takes over 20 years to arrive.  

Hmm,  seems that you failed to read my post as it was intended.

Vecordious;

Everyone has a right to equality in the system . no matter the crime people have a right to  be given the oppotunity to be rehabiltated - some fail some , some do not. they should be at least given that opportunity.

Gizmo

You picked up on the sentence about jail but there was another issue there - Child Welfare Service ( as I am relating to the ongoing care of the victim) need to be more involved.  

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

Vecordious;

Everyone has a right to equality in the system . no matter the crime people have a right to  be given the oppotunity to be rehabiltated - some fail some , some do not. they should be at least given that opportunity.

  

I would agree with you regarding any other crime, but paedophilia is in a league of its own.

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

Everyone has a right to equality in the system . no matter the crime people have a right to  be given the oppotunity to be rehabiltated - some fail some , some do not. they should be at least given that opportunity.

Quoted from vecordious

I would agree with you regarding any other crime, but paedophilia is in a league of its own.

The article clearly says that paedophiles cannot be rehabillitated. So there is no point in trying. Perhaps this is the answer?

"Well, Bart, your uncle Arthur used to have a saying: "Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out."  Unfortunately, one day put his theory into practice.  It took 75 federal marshalls to bring him down.  Now let's never speak of him again."

- The Simpsons, Episode 1F19 'The Boy Who Knew Too Much'

Maybe we should "Scarlet Letter" them ie brand their foreheads with a Letter P or something...this issue is too close to home for me and I for one think they should all be hung by their bits.  But that's just me.  

Quoted from Simpson

paedophiles cannot be rehabillitated. So there is no point in trying. Perhaps this is the answer?

Its an artical after all - but just to throw hands up in the air and give up is a cop out  - thats not the answer,

One trend in dealing with sex offenders is to name them and shame them. In this important article, prominent Brisbane criminal lawyer Andrew Boe argues we should be looking for measures that actually protect the community and promote rehabilitation of offenders rather than knee jerk and populist measures.

If we aspire to be democratic, just and informed and we want to be smart about the problems associated with sexual offending we should prioritise measures that will lead to the rehabilitation of the abused children and their perpetrators than merely being driven by the desire to exact punishment per se, feel good about it or attract votes from doing it

http://www.brisinst.org.au/resources/boe_andrew_meganslaw.html

I believe they should be named and shamed. It may very well work as a deterrent, and the rate of paedophilia may drop as a result.

.............and the vigilante groups will rise - take law into there own hands and the courts will fill with those crimes, the people will rise against the law and order for prosecuting those people, system breaks down and the balls starts rolling on.....

Shame Petophile Pete!

Quoted from Sillygostly

I believe they should be named and shamed. It may very well work as a deterrent, and the rate of paedophilia may drop as a result.

It hasn't in any outher country, especially the US where Megan's law has been in place for a long time now and pedophilia has increased (at least those being caught has increased).

Many pedophiles have gone underground there, gotten new identities and continued to offend and taking longer to catch. Those States in the US that have repealed Megan's law have gone back to child sexual abuse registers and more successfully tracking known pedophiles.

As has also been mentioned, the naming and shaming of pedophiles increases vigilantism, which often leads to the burning of property that often doesn't actually belong to the pedophile, and on occassions the bodily harm and even death of an innocent person who has been mistaken for the (ex)offending pedophile.

Much better to put them on a nationwide sex offenders' register and track them covertly as they currently do.

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

Its an artical after all - but just to throw hands up in the air and give up is a cop out  - thats not the answer,

Actually, the Simpsons quote that followed my statement was what I was calling 'the answer', which was "Shoot 'em all and let God sort them out!". To do nothing is definatly not the answer!

you base you life and thoughts on a comic ? OMG you need help .

If you actually read my post there was a very good article about ideas for it.

To actually say just shoot them is immature and naive.

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

you base you life and thoughts on a comic ?

Yes, ALLEYCAT, because I quoted The Simpsons  MUST mean I base ALL my thoughts on it...

I was being sarcastic, OK?

Personally I dont think there is any hard and fast answer to this problem.  What the authorities MUST do, though, is not release them into neighborhoods with young families and schools.  There have been so many cases of pedophiles being released into the community 100 yards from a Primary school, this is utter stupidity.  When they commit these horrendous crimes against children they must be made to realise that they have forfeited the right to live in normal society and thus be treated in a suitable manner.
My wife and I raised 5 girls and I shudder to think of my reaction if it had happened to one of them.  
My heart goes out to the victims and families that have been scarred for life by these sick perverts.

I was being sarcastic, OK?

sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.  whether that is what you meant or not it was uncalled for

Some of the fashion designers for childrens clothing should be named and shamed while we're at it! They think its OK for a 4 year old to wear a padded bra? To walk around in a mini skirt and a halter top? These innocent little girls are being told its OK to dress like hookers! Its no wonder the peadophile problem seems to be getting worse!

Their explaination for doing it is mind boggling too   . .they say they are giving these girls a subtle transition into the physical changes as they go through puberty!!. . (I think the 'spin doctors' have lost the plot).

Quoted from Gizmo

Perhaps there is a need to get rid of the cause of outrageous , perverted sexual desire. . . here are some good reasons to review the prevalence of pornography . .

We've had this argument before Gizmo and there is no proven link whatsover between sexual attacks and viewing pornography. Many large studies have been done on this and until a link is established you can't say viewing pornography causes sexual deviancy of any kind.

As stated, what about magazines like Seventeen, which are clearly aimed at 13 year olds (the magazine admits it) and shows girls in very provocative dress and poses?  The US ABC Today show had the story on just this area and Seventeen magazine, and how 12-15 year old girls are trying to behave 4-5 years older than they are because of the influence of the teen advertising and magazine market.

So if pornagraphy is to be slated as the cause for sexual deviancy then these teen magazines should also be considered to ascertain their role.

Boy 'bound and raped repeatedly'

By Ashleigh Wilson
September 09, 2006 12:00am

A 12-YEAR-OLD boy was allegedly raped repeatedly while his hands and feet were bound as part of a series of horrific sexual assaults by 10 males at a remote Top End community.

Northern Territory police have accused five teenagers and five men of inflicting the abuse at the community of Maningrida, 500km east of Darwin, on seven occasions between April and August this year.
The victim, who was only 11 when the alleged attacks began, was sexually assaulted 37 times, according to police evidence presented to the Darwin Magistrates Court.

"Come on, let's f..k him," one 13-year-old boy allegedly said to four other defendants during the incident.

In the first incident, prosecutors claim the boy was given cannabis to smoke through a pipe before being carried into a house. After being bound with black shoelaces and told to watch a pornographic DVD, he was anally raped by six of the defendants.

The alleged rapists were then replaced in the room by three teenagers, who proceeded to have sex with the boy.

The youngest defendant was 12, while the oldest was 39.

The shocking details of the Crown case, released to the public yesterday after an application in court by The Weekend Australian, have been described by magistrate David Loadman as the worst he has ever seen.

Referring to comments in May by Alice Springs prosecutor Nanette Rogers about abuse in indigenous communities, Mr Loadman said the public had a right to know about the nature of the allegations.

The 10 defendants face 48 separate charges, including sexual intercourse without consent, deprivation of liberty, indecent dealing with a child under 16 and stupefying in order to commit a crime. Mr Loadman has said some of the accused faced substantial jail terms, including life, if the charges were proven.

The court has also heard the victim had contracted gonorrhea.

The men were granted bail yesterday on the condition they remain at an outstation in Arnhem Land and do not contact the victim. The teenagers have also been granted bail.

The names of all defendants have been suppressed.

In the second alleged assault, the boy was forced to have oral sex with one man before being raped by three others.

One witness repeatedly told the offenders to leave the victim alone, but was ignored.

Another incident occurred after the victim went swimming with five of his alleged attackers.

Threatening him with violence if he refused their advances, five men had sex with the boy and one of them raped him with a 20cm stick.

As the group began to walk back to Maningrida, they told the victim they wanted to have sex again. He was then raped by the five males again.

On yet another occasion, the boy was taken to the beach by a 19-year-old, two 13-year-olds and one 12-year-old and given cannabis. In the water, he was told to perform oral sex on one of the defendants, who forced his head beneath the water.

The alleged victim claimed he thought he was going to drown. He then complied, diving briefly under water before being raped by the 18-year-old and the two 13-year-old boys.

The case comes after Ms Rogers prompted a national debate about violence in Aboriginal communities.

The Northern Territory Government has also formed an inquiry into the sexual abuse of children at remote communities.


http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,20377410-2,00.html?from=public_rss

I bet this kid would have loved it if somebody had kept the porn away from his tormentors . . where else would young kids get these ideas ??
The list of heinous crimes commited where the crim was a 'porn addict' are relevant. . .that is why I put the links in the above post.

T

Quoted from boomslanger

We've had this argument before Gizmo and there is no proven link whatsover between sexual attacks and viewing pornography.

Maybe not directly, but however it gives the veiwer a distorted view of sex in some cases

That article that Gizmo posted, Boy 'bound and raped repeatedly', is absolutely disgusting. I was shocked reading it. One of the worst articles I've read on the net.

I wouldnt be surprised if that poor boy commits suicide after what happened... He must be thinking...whats the point of living anymore...

I haven't read the article because the title is enough to make my stomach turn.

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

Maybe not directly, but however it gives the veiwer a distorted view of sex in some cases

Nearly all porn gives the viewer a distorted view of sex in nearly all cases, that's what most porn is, an exaggerated and emphasised view of various acts of sex and fetishes. Very little porn is based in reality and even those with an attempt at story lines only include them loosely as a frame work for the pornography they contain.

I will reiterate that in many major studies there has been very little or no evidence that porn has had any influence on sexual criminality. Throughout history some of the world's greatest sexual criminals did not have or watch any porn, in just about every case environmental and social factors formed their deviancy. Violence is another matter, and there is circumspect evidence that watching violence or partaking in violent video games does lead to an increased chance of violence in the participant(s). Sexual violence in media increases this even more (the violence that is) and the denigration of females or feminine personas), which is why this is the most censored porn in the world. Rightly so, child pornagraphy is not censored just banned as being illegal and criminal.

Yet violence in video games and film is allowed almost unfettered or with token efforts at censorship, whilst sex scenes are heavily censored and frowned upon. That is a debate on censorship though, not child sexual offenders as this thread is.

agreed - but,  if there is not a proven link between sexual attacks and viewing pornography then there is also not a dispelling arguement either you cannot have one view without the other.

It comes down to which side of the fence you decide to sit on.

That's not exactly true Gizmo. Yes pedophiles overwhelmingly access images and media of children (not always pornographic but often so) but that is as a result of their deviancy, not the cause of it. Overwhelmingly the abuse is social and environmentally based.

The person who tied up and raped that boy was not in a situation to access child pornagraphy at all, yet did one of the most heinous acts imaginable. His was a socially based deviancy. The most official definition doesn't even mention child pornography, but of course pedophiles will access pictures of children as much as possible, but these in most cases are not pornographic.

I didn't want to flood this post with lots of links and counter links (I always try to give both sides to an argument) but I'll post some stuff now and get a precis of stuff together later. as usual all bold highlighting is mine

Quoted Text

International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (F65.4) defines pedophilia as "a sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age."

The APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition, Text Revision gives the following as its "Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia":

    * Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
    * The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
    * The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12 or 13-year-old.

The actual boundaries between childhood and adolescence may vary in individual cases and are difficult to define in rigid terms of age. The World Health Organization, for instance, defines adolescence as the period of life between 10 and 19 years of age, though it is most often defined as the period of life between the ages of 13 and 18.

The APA diagnostic criteria do not require actual sexual activity with a child. The diagnosis can therefore be made based on the presence of fantasies or sexual urges alone, provided the subject meets the remaining criteria.

Quoted Text

A perpetrator of child sexual abuse is, despite all medical definitions, commonly assumed to be a pedophile, and referred to as such; however, there may be other motivations for the crime (such as stress, marital problems, or the unavailability of an adult partner), much as adult rape can have non-sexual reasons. Thus, child sexual abuse alone may or may not be an indicator that its perpetrator is a pedophile; most perpetrators of it are in fact not primarily interested in children.

Which debunks your capital EVERY statement.

Quoted Text

As noted by Abel, Mittleman, and Becker (1985) and Ward et al. (1995), there are generally large characteristical distinctions between the two types of offenders. Situational offenders tend to offend at times of stress; have a later onset of offending; have fewer, often familial victims; and have a general preference for adult partners. Pedophilic offenders, however, often start offending at an early age; often have a large number of victims who are frequently extrafamilial; are more appetitively driven to offend; and have values or beliefs that strongly support an offense lifestyle.

Pedophilics as stated often start offending at an early age well before they access child pornography. Of course they will access child pornography later for gratification or even use their victims to create pornography, but that pornography is not the cause, just a symptom.

This a link that supports your assertion Gizmo and even though they claim there is evidence they don't table it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/child/story/0,,1121315,00.html

This is a massive article that tables the exaggerations that go on about the extent of child pornography. It tables lots and lots of facts but be aware it is heavy going. http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume4/j4_2_1.htm

Thanks Alleycat, I had many other definitions and sources lined up but didn't want to make my posts overly long and complicated. You are right and it should be pointed out there are many conflicts within the psychological and behavioural sciences world on pedophilia (ephebophilia), as there are to the extent of it and the prevalency for adults to engage in sexually abusing children (including just fantasising).

I went to Wikipedia as the first stop as it came up top on my search for real data, and I went to all their references (not taking the Wikipedia face page as rote).

In the context of this thread and the premiss raised without supporting evidence, that pornography causes sexual deviancy, there is very little evidence to support this, which is what my quest was about in the first instance. Even the one link I gave that asserts the rise in child sexual abuse can be linked to the rise in internet child pornagraphy is not accurate, as it does not link the alleged increase in abuse with the known massive increase in abuse reporting.

None of the sources I gave from Wikipedia or those you quote say that pedophilia is the result of pornography, but many state it is a symptom of that mental aberration.

I have just finished reading a book called "Monsters and Men" under the headline is a quote from a Detective from New Scotland Yard saying "Monsters don't get close to children, nice men do". In this well written if horrifying book written by Bob Long and DCI Bob McLachlan the subject of this thread is discussed in depth. Chapter 28 of the book is called 'Naming and shaming' written by the head of the paedophile unit at New Scotland Yard.
Excerpt from the book...
"So when all is said and done, naming and shaming just produces a sea of unfamiliar, but strangely all too familiar faces. It creates confusion by volume and does little to protect children. The understandable demand continues for the formation for and access, controlled or otherwise, to a 'register' of paedophiles to find out whether some pervert lives next door. But if I do discover that 'one of them' is living next door, what do I do next? Lock up my children so he cannot get near them? Fine but what about the children that he does not live next door to, whom he might cross in the street on a day's shopping, or see on the beach, or meet on a sightseeing trip many miles away? And what about the paedophile who travels to my area in the same way?"
It goes on to say how paedophiles are restricted in their freedom and where they choose to live. It is also discussed how 64% of untreated sex offenders go on to re-offend. The justice system in the UK is such that paedophiles who are incarcerated for a substantial amount of time... long term treatment cannot be accomplished, and if an offender is only incarcerated for a short term he will not be allowed to join a treatment programme.
The book goes on to say that in the US a sex offender register was implemented in 1947. It discusses Megan's Law that Boomslanger mentioned in his post. It goes on to quote Seattle Police Dept Detective named Bob Shilling Over the past 10 years Bob has developed and refined procedures for educating the public. Bob's and all other police departments in the US are mandated by legislation to design effective programmes to monitor sex offenders and regulate their behaviour. Excerpts of what Bob says " Few of us would question the need for sex offenders to be held accountable for their actions. Yet while holding them accountable we must ensure sex offender registration and community notification is not used as additional punishment. Fair responsible and non-inflammatory community notification is a reasonable consequence to the acts of the offender, furthermore, it allows citizens to take prudent and rational steps to protect themselves, their children and the community from the sex offenders they know about as well as those they don't." then "The purpose of sex offender community notification is to notify neighbours when a moderate to high risk sex offender is living in the community. It creates the opportunity for law enforcement to educate the community regarding the sex offender who is the subject of the notification but more importantly it provides the opportunity to educate them about sex offenders in general" and "Many think that sex offenders jump out of the bushes and grab children. While some do the vast majority of sex offenders are someone who is known by the victim. Sometimes it is a person who is in a position of trust and authority, like a coach, counsellor, minister or doctor. Sex offender community notification provides the opportunity for law enforcement to remove the veil of secrecy from sex offenders. It is an opportunity to dispel myths, separate fact from fiction and reduce fears"

DCI McLachlan goes on to say...
"the American experience is not about naming and shaming, nor is it a way of pointing  to the front door of a paedophiles house. But it does recognise that although most people are not particularly happy that a sex offender is living in their community, they are glad they have the chance to know. Whether the 'American way' is suitable for the UK (or Australia) will undoubtedly be the subject of continued debate and differences of position, but the worst thing we could do would be to ignore how other countries deal with their problem of sex offender registration and public notification"

I found the entire book gut wrenching and at times had to skip paragraphs.
The subject of the book was made into a documentary by the BBC which took 3 years of close work with the Paedophile Unit of New Scotland Yard.
The name of the Doco is "The hunt for Britain's paedophiles."

Excellent and balanced post. Though I could do quick internet research on this I don't know if I could read a book on the subject, even an informed one like you reference. I have had a harrowing and personal association with a victim of child abuse by the clergy and actually attended some of the court cases he attended in seeking compensation from the church. Not the time to go into detail here, but it wasn't pleasant and the psychological damage done to the person I worked with was severe.

It seems there are pros and cons for both sides of the naming and shaming debate and as stated we should thoroughly look at what other countries have done and their successes and failures.

One thing I know for certain from reading your short excerpt from the book is that for naming and shaming to be successful it requires thorough police resources to the communities where the pedophiles are located. I do not trust a single State or Federal government to adequately fund or supply these resources over the long term. The moment the cut backs to the community consultation and policing are made then the situation becomes more dangerous all round.

Will naming and shaming also apply to the clergy and religious sects, and will the movements of the known pedophiles in these organisations be openly reported to the congregations as they are moved from one district to the next?

What of those clergy who are known or accused child abusers, but because through the church they had very expensive lawyers and Queen's Councils who get the cases quashed (not becuase they are found innocent but because of legal technicalities of time and the mental state of the accuser)? This happened to the person I know but the priest finally was convicted when they couldn't disprove the testimonies of two other victims who weren't as mentally scared and had better lawyers (not legal aid as my friend had).

So should those known abusers in religious organisations also be named and shamed?

I'd have to say yes in the matter of religious organisations and infact anyone with authority as thats a little different from your Mr. Joe down the street per say.

That said its the not only the Child that sufferes in this instance but the Community at large ( not saying that a communtity wouldn't be affected by mr.joe either) but the trust that people have in authority  is being abused against that community.


EDIT:  Name them - but not shame them in this instance - sorry I should of added this earlier

If one is named then they all should be. No playing favourites. One law for all.
I cannot see any Federal, State or Local Govt. giving resources to the police to thoroughly inform and educate the general public. You can't just throw these people to the wolves, no matter how much you would like to.
The book I wrote about also showed how the  paedophiles were ALL traced through either pornographic photos & videos, and/or pornographic websites for paedophiles. What I read was heart wrenching. Paedophile victims can be a few days old to eighteen years old and anywhere in between. The New Scotland Yard Paedophile Unit travelled far and wide to catch their man, even to Australia.

hmmm Suzi, Suzi ,Suzi  one law for all - dont we all wish it was that easy

Yes.... 'in a perfect world'.  

I think paedophiles should be locked up and the key thrown away.
But I also know through, studies, most perpetrators of sex crimes were once actually victims themselves. Paedophiliacs are completing the cycle of abuse - whether it be a concious or sub-concious act - and need intense therapy, treatment and assessment before they could even be considered for release into the general population. As a survivor of intense physical (not sexual) abuse, ive had approx. two years in therapy, imagine how much therapy a chid survivor of sexual abuse would have to endure. I am strong, I felt in my heart that what my father was doing to me was wrong, and when the time came to raise my own child, I made a concious choice to end the cycle of abuse, and with the support of my Mum and my councillors I made it through the tunnell of darkness.
Im not giving reasons or even excuses as to why a person does somethig so despicable, there is no excuse! Its up to the individual to seek help before there is an incident-recognise that you have a wound that needs to be treated, and do it!!
  

Quoted from boomslanger

I will reiterate that in many major studies there has been very little or no evidence that porn has had any influence on sexual criminality. Throughout history some of the world's greatest sexual criminals did not have or watch any porn, in just about every case environmental and social factors formed their deviancy.  . . .   .

I wonder if this little girl is glad about 'the studies' or if she will now spend her adult life facing ridicule/humiliation because there is a market for porn now that she has become the 'Star' of a video.
Some wreched site will pay for a copy of this crime to add the their smut collection . . .don't be fooled. . . the porn industry is FULL of paedophiles and their victims  . . . worldwide the 'actors' are often not paid for their contribution (certainly not enough to get rich like the 'porn kings' are).   

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,20425263-2,00.html?from=public_rss

Just goes to prove my original point about mob mentality when a persons are named in a community - NOONE deserves to have there house burned down i dont care what they have done.

Maybe we need to have a list too for arsonists/vandels and bigots

Quoted Text

October 05, 2006 09:50pm
Article from: AAP

"JUSTICE" has been done with the burning down of convicted pedophile Terrence Allan Ellis' house, the father of his young victim says.

The man, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, denies he lit the fire late on Sunday which razed Ellis' house in a town in Victoria's northwest.

"No ... Did I want to? Hell yeah," the man referred to only as James told the Nine Network tonight.

Im disappointed that you support this kind of behaviour

Quoted from Gizmo

The 'Naming' of that creep was not what caused this event.  In many small towns, word spreads like a wild-fire when somebody faces charges relating to kids. . so a whole town was angerd when the sentence was handed down and it was pathetically short.

Justice delayed is always a bad thing, victims have to 'remember' details for years so as to be useful in court and sometime it takes more than one trial. The child victim is more traumatised than the accused (who gets a taxpayer funded lawyer) and neighbours get to see it while they support the grieved family.

It is time to also name the judges who stuff up trials and allow these awful delays . . they too contribute to the community having this anger.
Now we have seen it once . . . it will occur again .
Laws and police only do so much good . . human sensitivities have been left out of the 'legal' equasion too long and now people are taking it back . .it is not right . .but the system is now seen to be letting toooo many victims down.

So the judges can be attacked and have their houses burnt down as well?

What ignorance?

Yes judges get it wrong, but not very often considering the amount of cases they hear. Only when they do it is politicised as an attack by the opposiiton on whatever State or Federal government is in at the time.

Also judges do not make decisions off the bat and have in front of them facts and information you as the public never ever see or hear about. They don't give a "light" sentence because they are lenient and think pedophiles are good people, in most cases a whole bunch of mitigating circumstances and influences are taken into account.

The family and friends of the victim always want more than the sentence given, even when it is harsh. Nearly all are like some here, who say throw away the key, but because they are personally involved that is exactly what they want, and are never happy unless that sentence is given. Because it isn't they cry foul to the media, which immediately has the opposition pollies on the charge and the whole public outrage is raised without any of them knowing all the facts of the case and what the judges full ruling was in the first instance.

As to the house burning. How would it have been if the perpetrator had skipped town knowing of the hostilities against him and other people were staying in his house, and they were killed or injured? Taking matters into your own hands when you are emotionally charged and angry is wrong every time and will lead to a disaster (and has several times in the US), which then negatively effects the original victim and their family even more. Imagine the guilt on the victim who has suffered the sexual abuse, but now must live with the fact their father has killed other innocent people revenging her abuse and will spend years in jail because of that?

No you are right, the actions of the victim's family is understandable, as the crime committed against one of their own is really heinous, it makes my skin crawl and makes me angry, often to fist clenching stage.

You again make the point that while these stuff-ups keep happening etc. But they don't keep happening, so that statement is an exaggertion of the actual reality of what's occurring in the court system. What does happen is when on the few occassions an apparent lenient sentence is bought down (and it my be a stuff up, but also just as likely be the right sentence), the media gets hold of it (often in complicity with opposition politicians) the whole case is blown up, often with exaggeration and always without the full facts of the whole court case at hand.

No you do not come across as a b**** and I do like your thoughts here, but I did take umbrage at your attack on judges (which is very common btw, and opposition politicians have a lot to answer for in this). Yes they get it wrong, and there was a spate of very bad decisions by old judges on rape cases in Victoria a while back, but that was also a fault of the system along with the judges. The system was tweaked and the judges educated or retired, not a problem anymore.

No matter how lenient the sentence may appear to be, or if it is hyped as outrageous by pollies, the media and shock jocks, without having sat through the whole case yourself and having all the testimonies and information at hand, neither you nor I can make judgement on the judge's judgement. That is my point.

Quoted from boomslanger

. . . .  The system was tweaked and the judges educated or retired, not a problem anymore. . .  .

Those are the words of a person who has never been in the 'system' as a victim or a witness.

Case 1 : 14yo rape victim knocks on my door at midnight after running the strees of a quiet suburb looking for help. She is visibly beaten and bruised and hysterical. Hubby takes her home and advises she tell somebody and get help. She does but we move house a month later and police could not find us for 3 years. On the day before the trial . .Graham Goodings is on the news asking for the missing witnesses to come forward and a friend calls us to remind us it may be US the police are lloking for. . . It was . . with 24hrs notice we had to appear in the Supreme Court and remember events and words from 3 years ago . . as it turns out the criminal was convicted for 15 years on an armed robbery charge and 6 months was added for the rape.
Old Judge. . did not think the victim would suffer long term harm.  

Case 2: New suburb and at 1am a girl is screaming from a nearby park for help. We took 5 mins to find her in the dark and she was stabbed with a long blade and her earrings torn from her earlobes. . .the sight still haunts me. We all testified against the stranger who followed her and dragged her to the rough bush park.
The Judge commented that there 'may have been tacit consent'     so sentence was reduced to 18 months. She was stabbed and her ears grossly disfigured!! . . 2 Senior Police resigned over the result of that case.

Case 3: 2 years ago I was 'pistol whipped' by an armed robber in a Post Office . After having my eye hit so hard (I was unconscious) I now have lost 25% vision in my left eye . . .the robber is known but it will be difficut to prosecute because of his ethnic background and his drug and alcohol history so I get to watch him get off scott free.

Don't tell me "The System' works . . it does NOT!  . . past history and first hand experience tells me that I am not the only one to see these failings.

I was not advocating that vigilantes call on Judges . . but there is so much secrecy and climbsiness in the system that I can understand why victims act the way we saw with the burnt house . . .  

You could quote case after case, but until you show the statistics of failures as a number of cases heard then they are meaningless. It's like anything, I could quote case after case where heavy smokers did not get any smoke related diseases and lived long lives. Does that mean all cigarettes are good? It's only when you take the amount of disease amongst all smokers that the real story of cigarettes is revealed.

So how many criminal cases are heard each day? Of those, in how many is the accused found innocent (but are known to be guilty) or let of with mitagating circumstances that would be considered errornous, and of those found guilty, how many are given what would be considered lenient sentences?

I have got first hand experience of the system several times, I've posted my run into pedophilia within the church through a friend. I attended his court cases over many weeks and saw the system fail him. But as it failed him because the church bought 2 Queens councils and spent a lot on lawyers, it succeeded in nearly all the other cases where the priest had molested boys and he was jailed for a substantial time.

I saw the system succeed with my younger brother who faced drug charges and because of the sentence he got and the way it was framed, he rehabilitated and bacame a model citizen until the day he was killed in a car accident. A lock up and throw away the key attitude with him would have seen him become a criminal as that was the path he was heading down.

For all the perceived failures, there are probably many more success that don't make the news because they don't get political mileage, or are not sensationalistic enough for the shock jocks, TT or ACA.

Sorry, until I can see hard stats on sentencing, then anecdotes really don't mean much and are not the basis to attack judges.

Quoted from boomslanger

. . . . Sorry, until I can see hard stats on sentencing, then anecdotes really don't mean much  . . . . . .  

Now I am smiling! . .      

Statistics aren't the be-all-&-end-all either . . . it depends what level you expect to satisfy you in the failure/success race.

I say that the sheer number of court cases for crime in this country is evidence that the rule of law is failing. If people obeyed laws more diligently then our court system would not be overburdened. So far the problem of crime is escalating.
What % of failures in trials would satisfy your curiosity? . .50/50 ? still too many unhappy results.
What constitutes a success/fail ? crims getting a walk say they think the system is fine . . those who watch them walk say it is not.

I would think a failure rate as low as 10% is unacceptable but there is no way of judging that as each will see things from a different perspective that stats can't accommodate.

Eg:



This is a statistic I love . . how does one understand this :

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1543174,00.html?cnn=yes

2 perverts and  no way of knowing how many victims . . but a house full of the worst kind of porn . . it made the hardened police commissioner sick.  . .how does one decide the severity of such cases. ?

All perverts should be named and shamed but what is the biggest concern is the ones who are just cautioned and then left to get on with their twisted lives because the CPS wont prosecute even when they are literally begged by the investigating police officers and the children involved to pursue the case. Karen Myers a civil servant abused her step-daughter and her son for a period of 8 years yet when the, by now 20 yr old step-daughter confessed what had occurred to a solicitor and the police were brought in and investigated the case all that happened was a caution as the police had no powers other than to that due to the reluctance of the CPS to pursue a case where a woman was the perpetrator.
All alleged and convicted abusers should be tagged and listed so that the general public know who is in their midst.

Quoted from David2

Post deleted by admin - thankyou

Damn vigilaties if there is one thing i don't like is people that think they are beyond the law - there are legal avenues to address Police matters and it should be addressed with the Odbudsman and the DPP for action.

Quoted from David2

Post deleted by admin - thankyou

  damn it ... you mean i wrote all my previous 2 posts for nothing then !  ( to which i have now deleted myself .. i'd hate to give admin the pleasure of doing it ! )
bit P.C dont ya think - c'mon for god sake admin !  

this PC Bullshit is becoming f'ing rediculous now, i mean really - you have just taking away someones freedom of speech ! errr... ( print )  

talk about paranoia  

* waits for brown nose admin backup ..even though ya probably did'nt even read my previous post's !  

Free speech is fine - but to actually have someone touting that they could make someone’s life 'difficult' my the actions that they are mentioning is going a little too far ....

This forum as has been mentioned i think countless times is family directed that is ALL ages, I personally felt the post was inappropriate for this kind of Forum and reported it.

If you have someone to blame then blame me not Admin.  

* as a matter of fact i did read your post

Quoted from ALLEYCAT

Free speach is fine - but to actually have someone touting that thay could make someones life 'difficult' my the actions that they are mentioning is going a little too far ....

This forum as has been mentioned i think countless times is family directed that is ALL ages, I personally felt the post was inapropriate for this kind of Forum and reported it.

If you have someone to blame then blame me not Admin.  

* as a matter of fact i did read your post

( you did , i just read your previous post again ) lol ..and ?



alright , i'll blame both then !  

did you at all get to read what i previously posted ?

i've read more controversial stuff than what i just read back then .

do you also understand that i agreed to some of what you'd also said in your previous post ...

personally , i dont think there aint nothing wrong with trying to convince an ( potentual ) irrationalist that certain ways of doing things are wrong , i know it's a long shot , but i think with some people they just need to be reminded of whats right /wrong & in basic form of explanation . 'KISS'
do ya know what i mean ?  

Yes as i mentioned I had read your posts  i have no idea why you deleted it but that was your choice.  

controversy is fine but to openly advertise services that was mentioned is not acceptable in any society dont you think.

i deleted for 1 simple reason - that is = with what i wrote aint gonna make any sense what so ever , especially considering the fact that the person i was replying too , their post had now been deleted by Admin... pretty simple !  

it's alright for us , co's we know what was going on - but other's well, you know  


* waits for curiosity to kill all the cats   lmao  

When a 'sex offender' is outed publicly mistakes are frequently made. Paedophiles, rapists, sex abusers of both Children and Adults are all lumped under the same umbrella. Watching something on TV recently I was reminded of the fact that vigilantism so often gets the details wrong.
A man whose son is missing received a flyer from a 'good doer' with a picture of a man purported to be a paedophile because the 'do gooder' found him on a Sex Offenders website. The distraught father goes to the alleged paedophile's home and proceeds to be him to a pulp. It is explained to the father afterwards that the supposed paedophile was on the sex offenders website because he rapes/assaults WOMEN, grown adult women. Not children. It brought home to me the fact that people who seek revenge most often have their reasoning and vision clouded.

I missed all the action early on in this thread but I am happy to see our great ADMIN. has taken appropriate steps to stop extreme views seeing the light of day.  

Add it would appear that you don't understand this Forum or its policies.

This forum is not for self promotion of products and services it is a general feedback forum for free discussions mainly directed at the entertainment industry. Not for your self promotion, regardless of your intent it is unaccepatable behaviour.

You have no buisness posting this kind of SPAM and thats what it is in this Forum - I have reported you again.  

Why Why Why.... do I miss all the controversy and come in late and wonder what the heck has been going on....?

Alleycat, what are you afraid of? Are you advocating that paedophiles should be free to roam and prey on whom they choose. I accept that perhaps it was wrong to promote our number on the site and perhaps it may have been better to contact the victim direct, but I fail to see where you are coming from. Perhaps some feedback from victims of abuse especially the recent postee would give us all a clearer picture of what they wish for.
People who perpetrate crimes on children or weaker members of society forego any rights as far as I am concerned. Perhaps you have a different take on this?

Quoted from David2

Alleycat, what are you afraid of? Are you advocating that paedophiles should be free to roam and prey on whom they choose. I accept that perhaps it was wrong to promote our number on the site and perhaps it may have been better to contact the victim direct, but I fail to see where you are coming from. Perhaps some feedback from victims of abuse especially the recent postee would give us all a clearer picture of what they wish for.
People who perpetrate crimes on children or weaker members of society forego any rights as far as I am concerned. Perhaps you have a different take on this?

I tend to agree with you, David2 that these "people" forego any rights to be part of normal society.  I did not see your original post on this matter but I trust you now understand why it was deleted.
Belated as it may be, welcxome to our forum....

Afraid - far from it mister!

Firstly - I don't pretend to condone this kind of behaviour so don't make assumptions as has been proven time and time again will turn out wrong.

Secondly - I don't and will not support ANYONE that advertises that "they can make someones life difficult" and to involve oneself it MOB MENTALITY and VIGILANTY like behaviour - 2 wrongs don't make a right

Third - This forum is NOT designed to promote 'services' such as what you are advertising

Fourth - Police , the courts, the Odbudsman etc i'll agree do get it wrong in some circumstances, however to 'take matters into your own hands' is WRONG plain and simple if you have an issue with the current legal system take it up with them.

Alleycat, my comments were not a personal attack upon yourself but a general obversation on your stance. I also did point out in the deleted earlier reply that 'mob pressure' is never used but organised protests in the abuser areas were held. The target is never named but they are at least aware that people are vigilant in that particular community. I also did apologise in the deleted msg for breaking the rules of this forum, even though I did not do it deliberately. There are many forums which do activley give names and addresses out of alleged and convicted, which is not something I would ever condone, as I do agree that violence is never the answer.
Yes the law does make mistakes, more than you would believe. The trouble is that not only do the perpetrators escape to commit more crimes but the victims are left with no closure or redress. That is the biggest sin.
Once again I apologise for breaking the rules but you and I will have to agree to disagree on this subject as I believe in pro-activity in defending the defenceless against evil.

Um sorry but  Alleycat, what are you afraid of?  is directed at me personally.

Quoted Text

organised protests in the abuser areas were held. The target is never named but they are at least aware that people are vigilant in that particular community.

IS mob mentality also its called harrassment. It is the police that are to moniter not yours!

Quoted Text

you and I will have to agree to disagree on this subject as I believe in pro-activity in defending the defenceless against evil

Defending the helpless is fine but not with the methods you are using.

Quoted Text

more than you would believe

Just in case you haven't actually read other posts and jumped on this one, I was a Paramedic ( still licensed but not participating) I have dealt with the aftermaths of many a case and too many to actually mention here. I have also dealt with what you call peaceful harassment - to what happens when tensions rise.

I have faced many Courts as an expert witness. So in fact i do know and understand - when you have sat in A&E with a patient for hours on end ( in the course of work) trying to address the victim as well as the parents then you can judge my thoughts.

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat posting here and this will be my last on this matter. Now you just might understand where I’m coming from - but I doubt it!

Bump.

i don't think the person should be named. the person has served their time and they have rules they have to follow upon release. if people knew the paedophiles would have no chance of a normal life. and i know as i was abused as a child by family and not my father who passed away before i was 2. everyone deserves a chance. parents should teach their children not to trust or talk to strangers and with safety houses etc a paedophile should be allowed to live in peace if they follow the rules of parole.

Quoted from daisymay

i don't think the person should be named. the person has served their time and they have rules they have to follow upon release. if people knew the paedophiles would have no chance of a normal life. and i know as i was abused as a child by family and not my father who passed away before i was 2. everyone deserves a chance. parents should teach their children not to trust or talk to strangers and with safety houses etc a paedophile should be allowed to live in peace if they follow the rules of parole.

In the US, there's a national registry, and people are required to notify their neighbors when they move in.  
I was abused by my mother.  It was for a long time conveniant to think that she was a lonely sick person for a short time, and that as her child I was a target in such a manner that she wouldn't really do this to someone else.  I more recently revisted that notion, and the hard truth is that I was raised by a woman who I have no idea about when it comes to predicting who she might do what to and under which circumstances.  If there were a way for me to prove what had happened today, I would press charges simply because lack of doing so puts the responsibility on me if she does it to someone else, no matter how mild or severe the offence might be.  My mother should have to identify herself to the world for what she is because its for the good of society, and if given the chance, I will see that its the case.  The intention isn't to have someone run out of town, or harrasssed, but to keep parents aware of a threat to their children posed by people who are thus far resistant to treatment and extremely likely to re-offend.  I don't think we should give up on them as far as treatment goes, and just say "Oh well, they just can't be treated," as psychology seems to do, but I don't think its a bad thing to warn people given the current prognosis of these people.

most definitely yes..................

@ MD
First of all I am deeply sorry that you have experienced such unsuportable harm.
Second. I think that it is admireble that you found the courage to tell us about it which is a very difficult thing to do.
It can be very encouringing for others dealing with the same issue, though.
Thank you very much - you have my deep respect !

We lately had the same discussion about national registries for rapists, etc. in Switzerland and I really think that it is absolutely necessary for the security of the poplulation. Otherwise these people can easily just move to another part of the country and go on with their criminal activities. Incest is in fact a special case because the danger of a follow-up crime is questionable. After all I reckon that it is necessary to mention that such a registry can be a questionable thing for suspects and not convicted persons. There a max of care of attention is essential like with other registries for hooligans or registries in the field of healthcare etc.

But we had in Switzerland an interesting discussion about another aspect of sexual abuse, that is the statue of limitation. Meanwhile there is no more statue of limitation in my country but the problem is still not solved, on the contrary. There are new problems which arose as e.g. the abolishment of the statue of limitation for other crimes, the problem of finding some evidence for the bureau of investigation and last but not least the insuportable harm caused by flashbacks to the victims and most disagreeable questions during the trial because of the lack of evidence.

Btw. I think that therapies can possibly help the victims (e.g. trauma therapies developed for war victims etc.) but I'm very much in doubt whether therapies can help the delinquent except maybe for chemical or other castration of male delinquents which still are in the majority. Nevertheless I still think that research should never be ceased also in this respect because many of the these delinquents have been victims of a crime or social disadvantage themselves. This should always be on our mind when we talk about this issue.

Sorry for my bad English. I'm trying to do my best but the issue is very complex and it is not easy to talk about it in a foreign language. Nevertheless I hope that my statement was at least more or less comprehensive.

Well said, Tesla and as far as I am concerned your English and grasp of the English language is better than most young people in Australia!

I agree Tesla, the biggest concern is that there appears to be no therapy that is proven to work for these people.

No therapy ever will. Paedophiles believe it is 'love' and they are only showing their love to the child/children. They even call it NAMBLA in the USA which stands for North American Man/Boy Love Association They see nothing 'wrong' with their predilection  . Paedophiles who are caught and charged are like any psychopath or Sociopath who will never change because they like what they do. I study a lot about crime and truly there is no amount of counselling or therapy that is going to show these monsters the error of their ways.

My Mother was abused and interfered with by her Father, my Grand-father, for years. He died a horrible painful death from lung cancer and other secondary cancers, when I was 15. When my mother revealed to us (4 daughters and Father) what had been done to her I was 28. That day I stopped grieving for the loss of my 'Pop' and said 'Rot in hell you bast**d'.

Recently I was discussing this with a friend who has studied psychology. She asked had he ever touched me and  said 'no' but then I remembered he used to let me look at his girlie magazines called 'MAN'. I was only around 5 when I began looking at them. Not secretively but wide out in the open on the lounge room floor. My friend pointed out that he was 'grooming' me. To make nudity and the female body more acceptable to me, as a child! I almost threw up when I realised she was correct.  

He never once touched me or my sisters that any of us remember. When my Mother told her sister and two brothers in the last 15 years what happened to her they insisted she was lying/imagining about it and wrote my Mother off. They still do not have contact with her. But that's okay because she knows that I believe and Dad believed what she said was true and Mum knows in her heart that it is true.
My three older sisters believe that Mum's memory may of misconstrued what happened or that she imagined it, as the years since she revealed her secret have passed. My belief in her and what she said has never wavered... because she is my Mum.

About 80 % of sexual abuse happens to be in the inner or outer circle of families.

I used to work for the prosecution for several years and as a woman I was also doing several cases of rape, esp. of incest.

One of the biggest problems about it is the big silence in the families and often also of the society surrounding it but first of all the deep post traumatic disorder of the victims who lose completely the confidence in the family as a social instituation and last but not least the confidence in themselves which often affects future intimate relationships - assumed they are possible at all, family planing and professional life. The family is ruined in either case with and without trial.

As a postgraduate i also participated in the writing of a book of my professor. This book was about prison sentences and resocializing measures, i.a. the security measure of lifelong prison storage of criminals which of course also refers to sexual criminal offenders. There is a lot of reasearch beeing done with regard to therapies and this can and must not be completely ignored for stigmatizing criminal offenders as monsters does not solve the problem at all, quite the contrary. It anticipates any progress in that respect. I don't think that these discussions should be left to political hardliners, the same people who defend  death penalty, the same people who send soldiers to war in Iraq, Afghanisten, etc. and after their return (of the soldiers) - if they ever return - ignore them completely, not to speak about the complete lack of medical and especially psychological care or social and professional integration programs.

Suzy,  dplease on't think that I'm speaking with disrespect regarding your family history,
far from it. I'm just trying to see things from a a bit different perspective.