Like the title says, what on earth is going on there??? First it was Palastine vs Israel now Lebanon has gotten in on it. Is this all a fight for land or something more?

There has been animosity between those peoples for over 4,000 years. . they don't know how to stop it.         

Over what though??? Religion? Land? Both? Is this akin to the Catholic vs Prodestant wars in Ireland?

Looks like everyone's going crazy  

Quoted from vecordious

Over what though??? Religion? Land? Both? Is this akin to the Catholic vs Prodestant wars in Ireland?

Looks like everyone's going crazy  

It is the same cause as usual . . land and religious history . .but it has just been going on twice as long as the Catholic v's Protestant thing.

Israel claims it has a right to its God given land . . from the days Moses led the Israelites from Egypt . . . and the Palestinians have been fighting for it back in one way or another since the 1st century AD.

Quoted from vecordious

Over what though??? Religion? Land? Both? Is this akin to the Catholic vs Prodestant wars in Ireland?

Looks like everyone's going crazy  

It goes back so far no one really knows (or cares). One side kills the other and takes the land, the other side strikes back and retakes the land. Maybe they should step things up, get it over and done with!

Quoted Text

Australia 'must intervene' in Mid-East
From: AAP
July 14, 2006  
AUSTRALIA must intervene to stop Israel's war against Lebanon and the Palestinians, a Middle Eastern community leader said.

Israeli warplanes yesterday struck the runways of Beirut international airport in the city's Hezbollah-controlled southern suburbs, forcing its closure, after Hezbollah guerrillas kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and killed eight.
Islamic Friendship Association of Australia Keysar Trad said Australia had a moral obligation to intervene to stop the war against Lebanon and the Palestinian people.

"Australian Muslims, along with the wider community, are greatly disturbed at this escalation and call upon the Australian government to intervene to stop any further acts of war," Mr Trad said in a statement.

"With half a million Lebanese Australians, Australia has a moral obligation to intervene to stop this war."

Several Australians were last night believed to be stranded at Beirut airport as Israeli military forces pounded the Lebanese capital and blockaded the country.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) was trying to contact a group that ABC radio reported had been trapped at the airport when it came under attack.

The Australian embassy in Beirut was also closed as the security situation in the Middle East took a turn for the worse.

DFAT has upgraded its travel warnings, advising Australians against travelling to Lebanon and urging those already there to seek shelter in secure locations and to monitor media reports.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19785033-29277,00.html

This Keysar Trad f#ck can go screw himself, the same guy did/does absolutely nothing in relation to middle eastern thugs rampaging around various parts of Sydney he just gives the customary "it's a cultural thing" sh1t. Australia has SFA to do with this situation.

P.S. This should do heaps to help petrol prices

This is another perfect example of the west's incompetence and disregard for others. The UK and the US gave the Jews Israel because no one else wanted them, and since Israel was their holy land it would make a perfect fit. Did they not see the problems that would arise from this? Or is it they simply did not care? After all who would care if the Jews and the Arabs destroyed each other?

Quoted from x452

This is another perfect example of the west's incompetence and disregard for others. The UK and the US gave the Jews Israel because no one else wanted them, and since Israel was their holy land it would make a perfect fit. Did they not see the problems that would arise from this? Or is it they simply did not care? After all who would care if the Jews and the Arabs destroyed each other?

You keep talking like that. . if you hate 'The West' so much . . why do you live here. ??

The middle east is not a font of good deeds either you know. . your phrasing is inflammatory and tactless . .people can't help where they are born so leave off the nationalistic leanings.  It is also people who share your opinions that keep putting trust in those same politicians you so often want to fix things. . both East and West don't know what to do any more. .    

Quoted from Gizmo

You keep talking like that. . if you hate 'The West' so much . . why do you live here. ??

Never said I hated the west. Just very sick of all those people who have the attitude of "We're better than them" and "Survival of the strongest".

Quoted from Gizmo

The middle east is not a font of good deeds either you know.

Never said it was. But with exploitation and disregard the west has for these countries, is it any wonder they are messed up?

We must accept some responsibility for situations such as this.

And yet we still have people that think what we're doing is right.

I don't see you pulling up aquamonkey for saying they should finish each other off.

Or does it suit you to keep your head buried in the sand?

WTF how exactly are the oil sheiks being exploited with their billions of dollars?

Quoted from x452

Or does it suit you to keep your head buried in the sand?

Now I'm sure of it!!. . you and babes_mate are the same person . . .  you are the 'answer' extension of b_m arguments. . .        

I don't bury my head in the sand. .  I just happen to know how/when all the troubles you keep bleating about will be resolved. . I don't buy into the political remedy for anything . . and I would recommend it to you for your mental wellbeing as well.  . . .        

Quoted from aquamonkey

WTF how exactly are the oil sheiks being exploited with their billions of dollars?

They're not, I mean countries like Afghanistan and Iraq where the US is now in control of their oil.

Quoted from Gizmo

I don't bury my head in the sand. .  I just happen to know how/when all the troubles you keep bleating about will be resolved.

Really? Please tell us?

Quoted from Gizmo

I don't buy into the political remedy for anything

You might have given up on democracy but there are some of us that still believe in it. Where's your character Gizmo? Or must we get you wet to see some emotion?

By joining the hopeless you have essentially conceded that this is as good as it gets. What a sad world you live in.

(As I realise I have a stick in my hand and a deceased equine in front of me).

The root of all recent problems as x452 says date from the US giving land they had no right to give to the jews.
Can you imagine if it was Lebanon or Palestine attacking Israel? The US(and little johnny) would be in like flynn demanding they stop the agression. But since it's the other way they don't give a rats as they are inherantly anti-muslim.
And does all the Israeli agression remind anyone of a certain european nation circa 1939  

that entire last post by x452 is somewhat surreal

Quoted Text

Lebanon or Palestine attacking Israel

Who would think of Lebanon or Palestine attacking anyone!!!!!! poor sweet little lambs they are  

Quoted from x452

Really? Please tell us?

The middle east problems started thousands of years ago with Israel and surrounding neighbours fighting for land and sovereignty. . .nothing new there.

The Bible book of Daniel tells us that there is a time when men will not rule each other any more 'coz the results are plain for all to see   . . one man is NOT better than another. . neither are men who are politically motivated capable of fixing the myriad of things that need fixing.
Have a look at Daniel 2:44 and see for yourself. . . 'those kings' will be swept way to make way for a rulership that will not be passed on to any man. . . today, indiviuals are choosing to do the right thing and live in peace as preparation for that time. . (millions BTW).

Quoted from fajo

The root of all recent problems as x452 says date from the US giving land they had no right to give to the jews.
Can you imagine if it was Lebanon or Palestine attacking Israel? The US(and little johnny) would be in like flynn demanding they stop the agression. But since it's the other way they don't give a rats as they are inherantly anti-muslim.
And does all the Israeli agression remind anyone of a certain european nation circa 1939  

Hi fajo,

I'm a little slow on the uptake with all this. How did the US give away land to the jews? Was it uninhabited at the time or did they just hand it over while others were still living there? Is that what Palestine and Lebanon are so insensed about?

Quoted from vecordious

Hi fajo,

I'm a little slow on the uptake with all this. How did the US give away land to the jews? Was it uninhabited at the time or did they just hand it over while others were still living there? Is that what Palestine and Lebanon are so insensed about?

There was a bit of a war some 40 years ago where Israel  took over the Palestinins land. . but it has been to & fro between them for so long they can't even remember any more. . it was inhabited and the locals were then divided to the west bank or out . . if they did not like it.  Many think the USA was behind it all but it would not have been an issue if the animocity had not been going on for centuries.

Ah.. I see. Thanks Gizmo!

Quoted Text

Many think the USA was behind it all but it would not have been an issue if the animocity had not been going on for centuries.

Why is it that everything the US touches turns to sh#t

Quoted from fajo

And does all the Israeli agression remind anyone of a certain european nation circa 1939  

That is a good point fajo. . .  after WW2 the United Nations was revived to 'save the world' from future atrocities like the Nazi regime. . . and has it worked??. . not for a moment. . there have been NO war-free days in the last century.  . .all the political 'good will'   from the UN is useless. . people are just too war minded. . .and the UN can't stop Robert Mugabe in Africa. . so the lessons they supposedly learned from WW1 & 2 come to zero.  

these sites might give a further insight in to the "creation" of Israel...

A Jewish perspective: http://www.jewfaq.org/israel.htm

Another perspective: http://www.adl.org/Israel/Record/creation.asp

Quoted from aquamonkey

that entire last post by x452 is somewhat surreal

Quoted from Gizmo

The Bible book of Daniel tells us that there is a time when men will not rule each other any more 'coz the results are plain for all to see   . . one man is NOT better than another. . neither are men who are politically motivated capable of fixing the myriad of things that need fixing.
Have a look at Daniel 2:44 and see for yourself. . . 'those kings' will be swept way to make way for a rulership that will not be passed on to any man. . . today, indiviuals are choosing to do the right thing and live in peace as preparation for that time. . (millions BTW).

Are you talking about the second coming or an alien invasion? (or perhaps a mogwy invasion)  

I'd say that remark was less than polite/pleasant and somewhat "below the belt".

Quoted from Gizmo

The middle east problems started thousands of years ago with Israel and surrounding neighbours fighting for land and sovereignty. . .nothing new there.

The Bible book of Daniel tells us that there is a time when men will not rule each other any more 'coz the results are plain for all to see   . . one man is NOT better than another. . neither are men who are politically motivated capable of fixing the myriad of things that need fixing.
Have a look at Daniel 2:44 and see for yourself. . . 'those kings' will be swept way to make way for a rulership that will not be passed on to any man. . . today, indiviuals are choosing to do the right thing and live in peace as preparation for that time. . (millions BTW).

Up til now I've not commented on anything of yours but using the bible is the straw.

The bible is factually wrong and riddled with historical mistakes. It is mostly a work of fiction based on original gospels that have been rewritten and edited so many times they barely resemble the original text. You cannot quote the bible for historical or archeological fact, not even the church does that anymore. Only evangelicals continue to do this. As the recently found "Gospel According to Judas" shows there were were many gospels, but most were destroyed for firewood at the time. Of the ones that survived the church destroyed many as they didn't agree with their teachings (like the one of Judas they declared a pogrom against). Of those that remained and did get public distribution, most were rewritten with entire meanings changed to match the teachings of the time. Even the meaning of the title for the bible has been changed. The leaders of the Christian religions, especially the evangelical ones, quote the passages verbatim as absolute irrefutable fact and as the "Word of God". The bible was never originally called or spoken of as the "Word of God" but as the "Idea of God", which means it was being preached as an ideological view of what the practicioners of the time thought their God would be. Again it was the ancient Christians who changed the meaning to the "Word of God" to fit their teachings. So an idea about what a god would be like and the rules they would impose was changed to be about a real God and the rules and laws he directly imposes.

In context with these conversations in this thread, and something stated earlier, just take the fact of the Jews fleeing slaverly in Egypt being led by Moses. At that time the Egyptians were the most fastidious record keepers on the planet (just as the Germans would be under Hitler). Every grain of wheat, drop of water, animal and person, including personal slaves, were recorded in great detail. Yet nowhere in any Egyptian record for any city was there mention of Jewish slavery. Here goes the next myth, slaves were not used to build the pyramids. The Egyptians used indentured farm labourers and farmers for the most part on a seasonal basis and who they looked after extremely well, giving them the best food and even having hospitals and medical centres on pyramid and major building construction sites to tender to injured workers. Archeology has irrefutably proven this.

So though Egyptian royalty and the wealthy had personal slaves, Egyptian society as a whole did not have slave labour, thus there were not armies of slaves and definitely, as every historical record but the bible shows, there was no army of Jewish slaves anywhere in Egypt.

That leads me onto the next problem of the Jewish historical and religious claim on the land. That doesn't hold up either, and it is Jewish archeologists who are discovering this. Would take way too long to explain it all but there was a great BBC doco on this. Basically in the ancient times of King David (no historical or archeological record of him either) Jerusalem was supposed to be this great Jewish city, yet almost nothing or very little archeologically can be found of Jewish origin, including a deep water well that was the main water supply for the city you can visit to this day, where there are thousands and thousands of pieces of broken pottery, yet surprisingly none of Jewish origin. In the surrounding hills of ancient Israel though there is plenty of evidence of Jewish hill tribes. So there were Jews in the surrounding hills but none or very few in the major cities of the time.

To give both sides of the argument, this link below refutes what I state above (called biblical minimalism) and matches modern archeological finds to biblical text:
http://www.realtruth.org/articles/0403-avtb.html?gclid=COaqmYjokoYCFSHFWAodeQPezw

That link and the organisation it belongs to is by no means unbiased but it does raise a few good historical and archeological points. One of the problems is why has it been so difficult to find even the smallest amounts of archeological and historical information to support David and Solomon, supposedly great kings who built whole cities and who supposedly had massive armies at the time? Yet it is very easy to find and it is in great abundance archeological artifacts that support various Arab and other civilisations living in Israel, even trading and nomadic nations who frequented at the time?

That's all very nice. . .  and it must have taken a lot of time   . . but you will never change my mind.

Nor are you offering any resolutuion to the problems of the region this thread is all about   . . I was ASKED for my opinion so I offered it. . nothing more . . nothing less.  

Quoted from Gizmo

That's all very nice. . .  and it must have taken a lot of time   . . but you will never change my mind.

Nor are you offering any resolutuion to the problems of the region this thread is all about   . . I was ASKED for my opinion so I offered it. . nothing more . . nothing less.  

Well if you don't like facts and just go on faith then nothing can change your mind. Nobody can ever win an argument against faith, no matter how much irrufutable evidence is given. I never argue against faith, it's just pointless because as soon as you produce evidence and facts the person just states I don't care what evidence or irrefutable facts you produce, I have faith.

The solution:

Modern Israel is an artificial construct and is just a large chunk of land given to a race that had no land of their own and no real historical claim to any land of their own.

Quoted Text

In 1947, following increasing levels of violence together with unsuccessful efforts to reconcile the Jewish and Arab populations, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate. The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.

Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it. Attacks on civilians by both sides soon turned into widespread fighting between Arabs and Jews, this civil war being the first "phase" of the 1948 War of Independence.

On May 14, 1948, before the expiry of the British Mandate of Palestine at 5pm on May 15, 1948, the State of Israel was proclaimed.

So on the edge of a whole lot of other lands that are mostly Western constructs and given to warring nomadic Arabs who supported Western interests at the time, the State of Israel was formed and given to Jews thus displacing the Arabs who had been living there (not nomads) for many centuries and who did have irrefutable historic and religious claim to the land. So here was a race of people arbitarily given a chunk of prime land, displacing the Arabs living there and surrounded by Arab countries who now hated them for that displacement and who could see a future where the Jews would (with the aid of the US) would come to dominate the entire area (Afghanistan and Iraq are first steps in the complete subjugation of the M.E. with pro-US and thus pro-Israeli governments).

These Arab nations seeing this and already seeing Israel make land grabs in the rapid building of illegal settlements attacked the Jews (which was wrong, war never solves anything). Israel with the help of the US (billions of dollars in military aid) won the war and then claimed more land, which it has been doing ever since, stealing land bit by bit and finding any excuse to destroy Arab infrastructure and livelihoods to keep the Arabs repressed.

Quoted Text

Following the State of Israel's establishment, the armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq joined the fighting and began the second phase of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. From the north, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq, were all but stopped relatively close to the borders. Jordanian forces, invading from the east, captured East Jerusalem and laid siege on the city's west. However, forces of the Haganah successfully stopped most invading forces, and Irgun forces halted Egyptian encroachment from the south. At the beginning of June, the UN declared a one-month cease fire during which the Israel Defense Forces were officially formed. After numerous months of war, a cease fire was declared in 1949 and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were instituted. Israel had gained an additional 26% of the Mandate territory west of the Jordan River. Jordan, for its part, held the large mountainous areas of Judea and Samaria, which became known as the West Bank. Egypt took control of a small strip of land along the coast, which became known as the Gaza Strip.

During and after the war, then Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion set about establishing order by dismantling the Palmach and underground organizations like the Irgun and Lehi. Those two groups were even classified as terror organizations after the murder of a Swedish diplomat.

Large numbers of the Arab population fled or were driven out of the newly-created Jewish State. (Estimates of the final refugee count range from 600,000 to 900,000 with the official United Nations count at 711,000.[6]) The continuing conflict between Israel and the Arab world resulted in a lasting displacement that persists to this day.

Immigration of Holocaust survivors and Jewish refugees from Arab lands doubled Israel's population within a year of independence. Over the following decade approximately 600,000 Mizrahi Jews, who fled or were expelled from surrounding Arab countries and Iran, migrated to Israel.

Israel to this day still gets billions in US aid (otherwise it would collapse) and it uses that money to economically suppress the Palestinians. So the solution is simple.

Give Israel back to the Arabs and move all the Jews to the real promised land, California (or George Bush's promised land, Texas). Just arbitarily carve out a piece of land around Los Angeles and Hollywood the size of Israel and give it to the Iraelites, calling it New Israel. There they can build another huge wall around themselves to keep out all the angry Californians and KKK who want to kill them and they can piece by piece steal land from America, building illegal settlements as they go. The beauty of this is that America can continue to give them billions in aid to allow them to live in America.

Some stuff from the other side that the Jews have no claim to the land:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/alleloopo.htm

Lot's more data, will post when I find it again.

I think that blaming America for this is situation is very wrong. Even more so when blaming Israel. By blaming other you deflect the true responsibility for what is going on and I am talking about the Hamas led Palestinian government. No one talks about what there responsibilities are. This is a government that encourages suicide bombers and continued hatred towards Israel. Instead of working towards creating a liveable environment so Palestinians and Israelis can co-exits, they are letting this situation continue. Is anyone doubting that the Palestinian Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas has no knowledge of were the Corporal Gild Shilat is? No, of course not. It is his responsibility as Prime Minister of Palestine to do all he can to bring these people to justice who kidnapped the corporal. But he cannot do that. Why? Because he is apart of the same group who has kidnapped the corporal. Has he gone on tv to state his anger at these terrorists? Of course not. How can you have a peaceful solution when the government is apart of the terrorist group. It is his responsibility to give the solder back. Not further this war by refusing to do this. Moreover, blaming America or Israel for this is silly and its letting the Palestinian government get away with there actions. This whole situation could have been resolved by giving the corporal back. Not them saying that if Israel try to get him back that they will not stop suicide bombers going into Israel and attacking Israelis even at schools. What gives them the right to say that? Israel has every right to defend itself from terrorists who call for the complete destruction of Israel. When have you heard Israel call for the complete destruction of Palestine? They recognize Palestine will be forever apart of there lives and was working towards creating a liveable environment for all. However, the Palestinians refuse to the same. How long can this continue? I think that the kidnapping of Corporal Gilad Shilat was the final straw, which showed Israel that a Hamas led government will do anything it can to destroy them and has not regard for the safety and well being of Israeli citizens as well as there own. America and Israel are in no way responsible for another countries obsession to destroy Israel.

I put blame equally on both parties and yes the US can also be blamed, as they condemn any Arab actions even when it is justified but tacitly fully support any Israeli action even when it should be condemned.

Did you know that Sharon used to aerial poison spray Palestinian farm lands and then a few months later declare the land barren and confiscate it to construct Israeli industries on or military bases.

Ever since the Israeli's won the war they have bit by bit been stealing Arab land (and that includes from neighbouring countries). In many cases (as Sharon did with the second intifada after months of peace) it is the Israeli's who instigate the violence to deliberately provoke a reaction. It is Israeli's who have also deliberately targeted innocent Arabs. They just killed 60 in Lebanon and I have less than an hour ago seen the picture of a little Lebanese girl blown apart by an Israeli missile). Of course our and the US media will in great detail show every Israeli death and tons of sound bites of Israeli political and military leaders talking about how they are protecting themselves but at the same time completely gloss over or not even mention Arab innocent deaths caused by the Israelis. That is perfectly OK, they are only terrorist Arabs and deserve it I guess is the thinking, but Israels terrorism is completely ignored, even their continuing flaunting of several UN resolutions is ignored, yet let any Arab country just sneeze the wrong way and there is America wanting to attack them or at the minimum impose sanctions.

Also how do you know the Palestinian government knows anything about the kidnapping? You only have the Israeli's word for that and they have been proven to lie on these matters all the time. The other trick of the Israelis is to destroy Palestinian police stations and infrastucture and then blame the Palestinians for not taking police action when a terrorist action takes place. Israel has completely destroyed the entire Palestinian government infrastructure and arrested many of the key government ministers, so just how are they supposed to take action against the kidnappers when they have nothing to do it with. Believe me, there is far more to this than one kidnapped Israeli soldier and Israel had kidnapped and assassinated Arabs all over the world but I don't hear much protest about that illegal act.

Please, the Arab extremists are wrong in this but in some ways have been driven to it, but don't make out or believe Israel or the US are completely innocent either.

Maybe the countries surrounding Israel have such a conflict with them because they are not a muslim nation...

Quoted from vecordious

Maybe the countries surrounding Israel have such a conflict with them because they are not a muslim nation...

Tarring all Muslims with the same brush, you should know better. That's like saying all Christians are KKK because they both believe in Jesus Christ.

It is far more complicated than that. How would you like it if a great chunk of your state right where you live was arbitarily taken away from you and given to the Pacific Islanders because global warming has wiped out their lands. You have no choice in this and are just told to get out and go to other states or into refugee camps where all your livelyhood right down to essentials like water now being controlled by the PI. The PI get billions in military and economic aid from America so they can now completely suppress you and because you have nothing but your body that is what your retaliate with.

Not happy with that the PI start to build illegal settlements on the best of your remaining land, poison you best farmlands, destroy any infrastructure like schools you attempt to build so you can get ahead and so on. I guess from your post Vecordious you would just allow this to happen until you either got killed by a stray PI missile or bomb or got shot by an PI sniper, arrested and jailed for years in PI land for no reason and never be charged or one of your children was killed by the PI.

If you saw Sunday this morning you would have seen what is so wrong about what Israel is doing. Cut to injured and mutilated Lebanese children, including a baby, being rushed through a hospital after an Israeli air attack that directly targetted civilian areas, then cut to the Tel Aviv beaches (where I was a few months ago) where hudnreds of Israelis are laying back in deck chairs getting sun tans in and swimming in the ocean, but saying they are concerned about the war. It was just so surreal.

Quoted from vecordious

Maybe the countries surrounding Israel have such a conflict with them because they are not a muslim nation...

I have read that comment several times. . and I just can't see where it infers any opinion of taking sides in the issue . . it does not 'slag off' either of the parties. . it does not 'put anyone down' . . it is simply a comment based on fact . . . boomslanger needs to read and reply on topic . .      

That is exactly what the conflict is about vercordious . .      . you just need to ignore the 'flare up' you just got and readers who can read will see that your observation was concise , fair and impartial.  

The bottom line is there are factions on ALL sides that do not want peace at any cost.
The extremists always start it,then the government takes over.
I cannot see that there is hope of peace, ever.......

boomslanger,

You have your right to your opinion, but there's no need to jump down my throat. Makes me cast doubt over your words because you sound like a raving fundie.

Quoted Text

I guess from your post Vecordious you would just allow this to happen until you either got killed by a stray PI missile or bomb or blah blah blah....

Where in my post did you see me say that? I used the word "MAYBE", meaning I'm just throwing a suggestion in there. Nowhere did I claim this to be gospel.

The smartest thing we as 'informed' citizens can do is not take sides and condemn violence from both sides.

I do feel for the Jews though, they've been through a lot and have the right to protect themselves, although I feel Israel in this case have gone too far.

We know our media is biased and pro-U.S. and anti-Muslim, that's a fact, they will always portray Muslims fighting for their freedom in a negative light simply to support our own "war on terror".

The war is bad versus bad and it's always the innocent that get killed.

Arab/Muslim and Jew will probably never get along, at least not in the forseeable future, the history is too bloodied.

The only solution to this conflict is to move the Jews out of Israel. They claim it's their holy land, would you want to live there? Not sure about you but if my Holy Land was ravaged with so much violence I would want to get the heck out.

Open discussion and exchange of ideas is very good and what forums are all about. The word Forum in the Thesaurus has 'Meeting, Debate, Discussion, Round-Table'. Please don't disparage other's for their opinion or point of view. This subject is especially sensitive and of course people's emotions are going to get a little tetchy when discussing it. Please discuss, don't argue or belittle others.

I apologise if it seemed like I flamed, that was not my attention. I have always blamed both sides equally in this and get upset when people attempt to make out the Israelis as the poor victim and the Arabs as the nasty aggressors. Israel have as much to answer for (and in the shear amount of innocents they have killed more to answer for).

Israel is the greatest military strength in the area and uses it to suppress and oppress. It gets billions in US aid to be able to do this. To also put some perspective on what you hear in the Western media and their bias, since the fall of the Soviet Union the US has by far the largest propaganda organisation in the world, bigger than the rest of the world's combined. The country that has the second largest propaganda organisation in the world and substantially ahead of the third place China and fourth place Russia is Israel.

Us hear in Australia, but even more so in America, basically only ever get Israel's side of the story. Every Israeli death is made a great deal of in the media, wheras most Arab deaths are not reported at all or are just glossed over. This is why I get upset, especially when I've seen footage of Israeli troops shoot Arab children and kill innocent Western observers in the occupied territories.

Ask yourself this. Why is it that for decades now Palestinians and some neighbouring Arab countries have asked for neutral foreign troops (even American ones) to be installed in the occupied territories and the borders with Israel but it has been the supposedly innocent victim Israel that has always vehemently refused this request? Makes you wonder what they don't want these neutral observers to see, just like they ban foreign NGOs and observers from going into the occupied territories and tho