I am all for thoughts and opinions IF they are based on fact yours however are not!
That's correct... Because forums are made to express our personal opinion.
They are not made to quote articles from historians or scientists who are only expressing their own opinions with a bias towards one side or the other.
Neither are the designed, for your soap box stand. Bias if you want to talk about bias then look at your comments - if someone doesn't think the way you do its wrong.
historians or scientists are just that - based on INFORMATIVE studies. I fail to see where yours come from. It is not thier own expressions its fact.
Just for your benefit :
Quoted Text
fact n. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed
Okay Aussies online, sounds like you need another history lesson.
Let's just concentrate on world war 2.
1. Japan would not have started fighting against Britain, America, and us IF America & Britain had not cut off their oil shipments to Japan. Japan was involved in a costly war in China. It needed oil for its military machine (as we still do). So the Japanese were forced to either give up winning in China, or take the oilfileds in Malaya & Indonesia for themselves. Since Malaya and Indonesia had been conquered by westerners, the Japanese attack on these territories was not so much as immoral as it was imitation.
So the Japanese came to New Guinea and bombed Darwin because of the US. To exalt the US as our saviours absolves the US for triggering the war in the first place.
2. 90% of Japan's troops were tied up in China. So the American ground forces were able to take the few islands that they did. China had the lion's share of the fighting. We could not have won without them.
3. America perpetuates the myth that the atomic bomb forced Japan to surrender. This is in fact incorrect. The Russians defeated Hitler (remember they captured Berlin) and then transfered their troops east through Siberia and began to invade the Japanese Empire pushing their way into Korea. The Japanese hierarchy were not afraid of the bomb. (Truth is, America was foxing when they made out that they had a third bomb). The fascist government in Tokyo was prepared to keep fighting the Americans even if it meant losing more cities. But instead they surrendered to them even though they knew that the Americans would hang them. Why?
Because the top brass in Tokyo knew that the Soviets could cross over the narrow straits and invade the home islands any day now. This would make Japan Communist. This would mean not only would the top brass be hanged, but their families would have all their property taken away, the Emperor would be shot, and capitalism and wealth would no longer be in private hands. That is why the Japanese surrendered, and surrendered to the Americans and not the Russians.
There is no point disputing this because it is all documented in government papers discovered when the US occupied Japan.
3. The Russians defeated Hitler. They lost 20million souls. The Americans only lost half a million. The Russian soldier fought the Germans for 4 years from June 1941 to May 1945. The American only fought them in Europe from June 1944 to May 1945 - less than a year. The Russians covered over three times more territory and faced far more German divisions.
Without China and Russia, there's a good chance that the Americans would never have entered the war at all. As it is, we now have US govt documents showing that a lot of cabinet & Congress men thought that it was good watching the Bolsheviks & fascists beating each other up and dismantling the French, British & Dutch empires, while they stood on the sidelines and traded with everyone and made lots of money. In the end, Britain became a satellite of the US.
Don't be so naive Aussies-Online. The US is controlled by the most ruthless men in America. They pay for their PR image.
Calm down people and stop the personal slanging match mentallity. We do not approve of that kind of thing on this forum. If this thread cannot be returned to a debate/discussion format then I will recommend it be locked. AO, there was no gain by you saying what you did about ALLEYCAT or alleycats in general so I have edited your post. I am putting you, AO, on notice. Now let's get back to the topic at hand.
But, what's get me is that everyone put the whole blame on America. The whole West is just as guilty of this as America. The whole of Europe and Australia needs the oil from the Middle East.
That's just ridiculous. Just because we need oil it gives us the right to go in and take/steal it at any human cost from the middle east?
So if Iraq needs wheat they can come in and bomb the crap out of us and take control of our wheat and funnel it back to Iraq?
In case you're not aware we are supposed to be civilised now. You're living in a different century. You have a 'survival of the fittest' mentality, that's for animals, not for civilised human beings.
America is the only country who is still invading other countries in order to 'liberate' them. Cowboys belong in the American west, there's no place for them in the world order to be running around invading countries and making up rules as they go along without majority approval.
America's arrogance is resulting in a less secure world. And we've put ourselves in harms way by joining them.
America will not win the war on terror with their current strategy. Take Iraq as a case study, this is a country who's people welcomed America in the beginning to rid them of Saddam, and now they want them to leave because they have failed to make Iraq more secure. Iraq is a failure, the country is worse off now than when it was under Saddam Hussein. Have they rid Iraq of terrorism? Hell no.
Quoted from Aussies_Online
Our ancestors gave their lives away so that their children and grand-children could enjoy the rewards of their sacrifice... Today.
Ancestors? The last surviving WWI veteran died recently and there are still many surviving WWII veterans. And many if not most (especially Vietnam) veterans are against us volunteering ourselves into war.
Quoted from Aussies_Online
It is not our job to go and save the world. Our job is to look after the interests of Australia.
Exactly. Iraq had nothing to do with Australia. Iran and Syria and Israel have nothing to do with Australia. These are matters for the United Nations, not for the rogue cowboy America and it's deputy England and England's bastard stepchild Australia.
Quoted from Aussies_Online
There are also a lot of poor people in Australia. Maybe we should start thinking about them. Perhaps we don't care about them because they don't rate in the news.
The billions we've spent on defence and our committments to America could have easily eradicated poverty in Australia and probably put systems in place to prevent the cycle of poverty. The more people like you support illegitamate wars the less likely there'll be any spendind on fighting poverty locally.
Thank you for getting this thread back on topic. In this case (as with so many others).... Who ARE the TERRORISTS? (It's a rhetorical question, no need to answer).
Okay Aussies online, sounds like you need another history lesson. Let's just concentrate on world war 2. Don't be so naive Aussies-Online.
I might be naive, but your post sound like an extremist attempting to re-write history in order to prove its point.
Very similar in fact to those people attempting to re-write the Bible or the Koran to suit their needs.
So what is your point? You want all of us to hate America? What is this going to achieve? Do you think that if we all hate America, it is going to vanish of the map, like some people hope that Israel will also vanish?
America is not the problem here... People with hate in their heart is the problem. That is what the terrorists strive on. Lets hate, destroy and kill.
I shall correct you later on about your history lesson.
But I am curious to know what is your solution to deal with terrorists. What was America supposed to do after the 9/11?
Lets not blame Iraq for those terrorist attacks. Iraq is just an excuse.
If Saddam Hussein had not played "silly bugger" in the same fashion than he did in 1991, Iraq would not have been invaded. He played right in the hands of George Bush. George Bush needed an excuse and Saddam handed it to him on a plateau.
Also... Why is it alright for you to hate Americans? While if I said "I hate Muslims" Everybody will call me a racist.
But, what's get me is that everyone put the whole blame on America. The whole West is just as guilty of this as America. The whole of Europe and Australia needs the oil from the Middle East.
That's just ridiculous. Just because we need oil it gives us the right to go in and take/steal it at any human cost from the middle east?
I never said it was right to steal it. I said "The whole West is just as guilty of this as America."
Quoted Text
America is the only country who is still invading other countries in order to 'liberate' them.
That's because America is the only country in the World which has the military power to do so. That is also why they represent the World Order.
What do you think would happen if the Americans were to stay at home on the front of their television? There would be anarchy amongst countries. You would have two dozen small countries around the globe at any one time killing each other. And you would probably have 50 countries with the Atom Bomb by now. Oh yes! That would be very safe indeed.
Quoted Text
Ancestors? The last surviving WWI veteran died recently and there are still many surviving WWII veterans. And many if not most (especially Vietnam) veterans are against us volunteering ourselves into war.
So? I said they did die for us. I think you would find it hard to found a Vietnam veteran thinking that war is a good thing. In fact very few people do. War is hell. But all the same, as we prefer hate rather than love, wars are inevitable and have been there right through history.
The West does not want war. We are civilise and have learned. But the other half of the world is not so civilise. What they need to learn is "Diplomatie".
When the UN tells you, "We are concerne that your country may be producing some weapon of mass destruction... And we want permission to come in for an inspection..." You don't reply "If you come here, you will have the mother of all wars."
But realisticly, the only reason you would refuse is because you know that you have been caught doing something you were not supposed to.
Some people might say that it is not very democratic to allow one country to have the Atom Bomb and not the other. The thing is... Most of those countries do not know yet what democracy is.
Quoted Text
Exactly. Iraq had nothing to do with Australia. Iran and Syria and Israel have nothing to do with Australia. These are matters for the United Nations, not for the rogue cowboy America and it's deputy England and England's bastard stepchild Australia.
The United Nations are only there to negociate and establish the peace. They do not fight wars. When diplomatie breaks down, they call on us to activate the war machine.
I might be naive, but your post sound like an extremist attempting to re-write history in order to prove its point.
So what is your point? You want all of us to hate America?
America is not the problem here... People with hate in their heart is the problem. That is what the terrorists strive on. Lets hate, destroy and kill.
But I am curious to know what is your solution to deal with terrorists. What was America supposed to do after the 9/11?
Also... Why is it alright for you to hate Americans?
You must read my posts very carefully. I choose my words carefully.
I have never advocated hating Americans, Arabs or Israelis.
But I will hate the message of their governments if I find that they offend human rights and try to lord it over others, bullying the weak and plundering their wealth. That is indeed hateful....creating the conditions where children die in the arms of their parents. THIS WE MUST HATE WITH A PASSION.
You need to understand the nature of power. First, the people who have it want it. They will do whatever it takes to acquire power. And they will do whatever it takes to keep power. Including murder.
Do you have lunch with John Howard a couple of times a month?
No.
But Rupert Murdoch does.
His vote is worth more than yours. In fact, if he decides he doesn't like Howard anymore, he can convince the voters that Howard has to go. He has power and uses his press to continue in that power.
The powermongers that control the United States do not heed American public opinion. If 90% of Americans think that the Kyoto Protocols are a good thing, the power mongers ignore that and keep pumping pollution into our air because they don't want to spend their profits making the world safe for our grandchildren. These guys are killing our granchildren for their own selfish comforts.
The Republicans that are in the white house now, are the same guys who were in the white house under Bush I, Reagan and Nixon. They go in to bat for the corporations, the elite, oil interests and arms manufacturers.
The power scenario works the same way with Israel and the Arab world. The Arab governments are controlled by the United States. It is left to patriots to go and do what they can to free their country of American puppet governments and Israel. This is what has created "terrorism".
The way to get rid of terrorism is to give the terrorists what they demand. Give them their countries and ownership of their country's resources and the fighting will stop.
You must read my posts very carefully. I choose my words carefully.
I have never advocated hating Americans, Arabs or Israelis.
But I will hate the message of their governments if I find that they offend human rights and try to lord it over others, bullying the weak and plundering their wealth. That is indeed hateful....creating the conditions where children die in the arms of their parents. THIS WE MUST HATE WITH A PASSION.
You need to understand the nature of power. First, the people who have it want it. They will do whatever it takes to acquire power. And they will do whatever it takes to keep power. Including murder.
Do you have lunch with John Howard a couple of times a month?
No.
But Rupert Murdoch does.
His vote is worth more than yours. In fact, if he decides he doesn't like Howard anymore, he can convince the voters that Howard has to go. He has power and uses his press to continue in that power.
The powermongers that control the United States do not heed American public opinion. If 90% of Americans think that the Kyoto Protocols are a good thing, the power mongers ignore that and keep pumping pollution into our air because they don't want to spend their profits making the world safe for our grandchildren. These guys are killing our granchildren for their own selfish comforts.
The Republicans that are in the white house now, are the same guys who were in the white house under Bush I, Reagan and Nixon. They go in to bat for the corporations, the elite, oil interests and arms manufacturers.
The power scenario works the same way with Israel and the Arab world. The Arab governments are controlled by the United States. It is left to patriots to go and do what they can to free their country of American puppet governments and Israel. This is what has created "terrorism".
The way to get rid of terrorism is to give the terrorists what they demand. Give them their countries and ownership of their country's resources and the fighting will stop.
It only takes a ten second decision.
OK... I do agree with most of what you say here.
Unfortunately, those in power are there to stay and we do not have the power to remove them. Unless you can convince the people to have a very bloody revolution.
I was saying in another thread that I was in the middle of reading "The Fixer"... The untold story of Graham Richardson.
That book describes everything you have just said about politic and power. But the book was published in 1994 for everyone to read... And it has not make the slighest bit of difference. Most people in Australia have a good meal everynight. And as long as their stomac is full... They simply don't care.
In order to change the world, people have to suffer first. Not too many people are suffering in Australia. What they call suffering here is "struggling to make their repayments because they over committed themselves through greed to have the biggest and the best (to impress their friends)".
However I do not believe that we should negociate with terrorists. We do not negociate with people using terror and physical violence. It simply would not be politically correct.
But we do negociate with countries.
Look at Lebanon right now... It has a huge terrorist organisation. What does it do about it? "Oh! We'll make sure that they don't have any weapon to hit Israel again." Is this a joke? Or what?
So this is the present situation... Most of the world is required to report any terrorist activity amongst its population.
But for some strange reason, Lebanon is entitle to have his very own terrorist organisation.
And you want me to feel sorry for Lebanon? No way Jose!
I feel very sorry for Lebanon and the Lebanese people because Hezbollah has forced Lebanon into this situation. Hezbollah are a nasty nasty bunch. The following articles and URL's are full of information.
Who are Hezbollah? Hezbollah guerrillas forced Israel to withdraw from Lebanon By Kathryn Westcott BBC News Online
Hezbollah - or Party of God - emerged in Lebanon in the early 1980s and became the region's leading radical Islamic movement, determined to drive Israeli troops from Lebanon.
In May 2000 - due partly to the success of the party's military arm - one of its main aims was achieved. Israel's battered and bruised army was forced to end its two-decade occupation of the south. Hezbollah now serves as an inspiration to Palestinian factions fighting to liberate occupied territory. Hezbollah has embraced the Palestinian cause The party, in turn, has embraced the Palestinian cause and has said publicly that it is ready to open a second front against Israel in support of the intifada. Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation.
Harper spokesman likens Hezbollah to German Nazi party of the 1930s Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister Jason Kenney holds a news conference in Ottawa, Tuesday to respond to comments made by Liberal, NDP and Bloc MPs touring war torn Lebanon. (CP PHOTO/Fred Chartrand)
Joan Bryden And Jennifer Ditchburn, Canadian Press Published: Tuesday, August 22, 2006
VANCOUVER (CP) - Divisions within the Liberal party over the Middle East deepened Tuesday with two leadership contenders calling for the resignation of the party's deputy foreign affairs critic.
Scott Brison and Carolyn Bennett said fellow Liberal MP Borys Wrzesnewskyj cannot retain his post as a foreign affairs spokesman after declaring that Canada should negotiate directly with Hezbollah as part of a bid to restore peace in Lebanon.
Hezbollah has few fans among bitter Christians Sarah Smiles Herald Correspondent in Ain Ibl, south Lebanon August 23, 2006 WISSAM ANDRUOUS'S family home lies in ruins after the war between Israel and Lebanon's Shiite Muslim militia, Hezbollah.
Plastic sheeting flaps over a hole where a bomb ripped the side of the house in the Christian village of Ain Ibl in southern Lebanon. Only the mattress springs remain of a charred room where three of his younger brothers used to sleep.
"We are Christians. We did not not belong to any party," said Mr Andruous, 31, a video technician and father of two, whose younger brother, Rany, 21, is studying in Sydney. "What if we rebuild this house and they make war again? How can I live with my children here?" he said.
Pictures from a rally in Europe. How much more ungrateful can you be to a country who has taken you in and allowed you to remain, no matter what your choice of religion?
This post contains attachments; to download them you must login.
In heaven, there are no interesting people - Nietzsche
Pictures from a rally in Europe. How much more ungrateful can you be to a country who has taken you in and allowed you to remain, no matter what your choice of religion?
Being a migrant myself I find this sort of behaviour inexcusable. It's one thing to do it in the middle-east but to do it in a country that has provided many of your people refuge is not right.
Having said that there was no reason for our Goverment to support Israel so blindly. Johnny was even more vocal about his support for Israel than the U.S. were!
How are Australian Lebanese and Muslims supposed to feel when our Government supports Israel destroying Lebanon and killing innocent people?
The difference between us and them is they may have rallies and hold up signs that say enemies or insulters of Islam must be destroyed, but we're actually there destroying them. They're protesting while we're destroying their countries.
Logged
