Hitler too made the error of thinking that the Jews were a race. As a result, he believed that Judaism was in the blood and could be exterminated.
I'll repeat myself
I do not regard giving Israel to a religion. But rather to a people (The Hebrews). It is their land of origin and without it, they don't have a country.
It has nothing to do with religion or race. I was talking about a people without a country. OK... It is true that the Jewish people use their religion to identify themselves. And that might not be a good thing. But so does the Muslims with their Islam religion.
In England, you cannot be King or Queen unless you are protestant. In France, more than 80% of the population is Catholic. It used to be close to 100%.
I think it would help if we stopped referring to them as "Jews" and called them by their real name "Israelites".
It is us who keep referring to them as "Jews" and create this war of religion. Should we refer to every english man as "Protestant"? And call people from France "Catholic" instead of "French"?
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2. proof number two: If Judaism is a race, how come Swedish Jews are blonde and blue eyed, Iraqi Jews are of Middle Eastern appearance, and Ethiopian Jews are black?
So what about Australians? We have some 140 different nationalities in Australia... And they all call themselve "Australian" after taking citizenship. What's the difference?
Nobody did say that Judaism was a race. You came up with this all by yourself. I also think that you are confusing race with culture. Being French, English, German, Italian, chinese, etc... is a culture, not a race. It is the generation of today with their obsession with racism that is viewing every different nationality as a race.
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That's where Israel and Palestine are today. And that's why it is highly unlikely that the State of Israel will be around for long.
You are entitle to your opinion. Good luck with it.
We (as democratic Anglo-Saxons) invaded the Middle East in: 1861 Bahrain 1868 Qatar 1882 Egypt 1884 Sudan 1884 Somalia 1891 Oman 1892 United Arab Emirates 1899 Kuwait 1914 Basra, Iraq 1915 Gallipoli, Turkey 1915 Iran 1917 Palestine, Jordan & Iraq 1918 Syria & Lebanon 1942 Libya, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia 1956 Egypt 1980 Iran 1991 Iraq 1992 Somalia 2001 Afghanistan 2003 Iraq
None of these military attacks and/or occupations were in retaliation to "terrorist attacks on our land" by these countries. We have been the aggressors for over 100 years.
You forgot to put Australia in there.
First there was the colonisation of the world by the Europeens.
I should remind you that between 1914 and 1918, we had a World War going on. It was called WW I
After WW II we had the cold war where the US and Russia fought each other underground for strategic positions in the World. Most of it was done by the CIA as it was its job. It was a simple matter of the US taking a country over before it fell into communist hands. There were different times and the West had an absolute paranoia about communism. Australia included. Even Vietnam was all about communism.
When the Berlin wall came down and the communist regime fell apart, the US had no more need for the likes of Saddam Hussein to fight the soviet allied like Iran. Or help Afganisthan fight the Soviet invasion.
So the US stopped giving arms and money to Iraq and Afganisthan. As a result, they got piss-off and turned their anger towards the US.
It looks simple because it is. We can find a million reasons and a million excuses for every single act. But the fact of the matter is that for every act, there is usually only one single reason. The rest just follow later on as things progress.
We can keep on blaming the US for everything. But what you have to remember is that most of what the US does is approved by the rest of the Western World. Maybe not by all its people. But definitely by other governments. Australia and the UK are just as to blame for the invasion of Iraq as the US is.
Someone also mentionned the fact that there was no terrorists in Iraq related to 9/11. That is correct. We went in Iraq to find some weapon of mass destruction. Not because of the 9/11. Even so, George Bush originally wanted to use the 9/11 as an excuse to go to Iraq.
A lot of you refer to it as "American Interests". Some of it is. But in many cases, it also serves the interests of the world. If the US had not fought communism... Who else would have? Where would we be today? For all we know, Russia would be controlling the world and we would all be living under a communism regime and a dictature.
The reality is that it does not matter what country in the world is in power. Whoever has the power will look after its own interests first. There is a lot of talk right now about China becoming the next super power of the world within the next 20 years.
It has nothing to do with religion or race. I was talking about a people without a country. OK... It is true that the Jewish people use their religion to identify themselves. And that might not be a good thing.
If Jews can not be identified by their religion or race, then what can they be identified by? You say culture. There are more cultural differences amongst Jews themselves than there are between Germans and Englishmen!
The claim that Jews had no country and nowhere to go is a complete furfy. Their home was in every country that they came from. They had the same problems as their non-Jewish co-citizens - homes were missing at the end of the war, and some homes had been confiscated. But that's the aftermath of war. Should the Lebanese now say that they have nowhere to go and someone else has to surrender their homes to make way for refugee Lebanese?
You yourself say you hold to universal rights. But you are not applying fairness to everyone. You are being selective on the basis of what your government allies itself with.
Did you know that during the Nazi era, Zionists went to America and persuaded the American administration to avoid taking in Jewish refugees from Germany? Can you imagine why Zionists would do such a thing? It was to fulfil their dream of Jews returning to Israel. Their passion for their ideal meant the suffering of countless others, Jews as well as Arabs.
If you hate Nazism because it's a message of hope for one of the world's tribes at the expense of every other tribe, then you also have to hate Zionism for it carries the same message, different tribe.
Zionism was born in the days of imperialism, colonisation and fascism. Assassinations, mass murder, unlawful imprisonment, confiscation of property, denial of rights, collective punishment, are all practised by fascism and Zionism. Israel was born in that mindset and still has that mentality.
The terrifying thing is that Britain, the US and Australia are all moving down that same track now as governments use "national security" as a smoke screen for big business getting bigger.
It's all about money and power. Lofty ideals, religion, and "liberating" others are the siren song that attracts the support of people who have not thought things through or who have not read widely to get informed. Our news media and the people they put in power protect the substantial people and blame their victims for their own sins.
It is their land of origin and without it, they don't have a country.
But it is not their land of orign. Would take too long and too many links to show why this is. There is a great documentary doing the rounds (SBS aired for the second time just recently) showing the origins of the peoples in the area.
Secondly when the 1 million+ Palestinians were kicked out and many of the remainder put into refugee camps, they were told if they went peacefully (which they did) they would be financially compensated and given assistance to settle into their new locations, along with being allowed to return to Israel anytime they wished. None of that ever happened, they never received one cent and then they became a people without a country as they watched the new owners of their land usurp, oppress and take even more land from those still left. No wonder they are pissed off at the Jews.
Also if you follow that tract then it should be perfectly OK for the UN to come in and kick all non-native Australians out of the country or put them into squalid refugee camps then give the country back to the Aborigines, it is the land of their origin. Native American Indians should be given the USA and Canada and so on...
Isn't it unfair that in all of history the only so called original natives of a land (and that can be disputed quite successfully) that have been given back a country are the Jews. The only other race that I can think of that has been given this privilege are the East Timorese.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
It has nothing to do with religion or race. I was talking about a people without a country. OK... It is true that the Jewish people use their religion to identify themselves. And that might not be a good thing.
If Jews can not be identified by their religion or race, then what can they be identified by? You say culture. There are more cultural differences amongst Jews themselves than there are between Germans and Englishmen!
The claim that Jews had no country and nowhere to go is a complete furfy. Their home was in every country that they came from. They had the same problems as their non-Jewish co-citizens - homes were missing at the end of the war, and some homes had been confiscated. But that's the aftermath of war. Should the Lebanese now say that they have nowhere to go and someone else has to surrender their homes to make way for refugee Lebanese?
You yourself say you hold to universal rights. But you are not applying fairness to everyone. You are being selective on the basis of what your government allies itself with.
Did you know that during the Nazi era, Zionists went to America and persuaded the American administration to avoid taking in Jewish refugees from Germany? Can you imagine why Zionists would do such a thing? It was to fulfil their dream of Jews returning to Israel. Their passion for their ideal meant the suffering of countless others, Jews as well as Arabs.
If you hate Nazism because it's a message of hope for one of the world's tribes at the expense of every other tribe, then you also have to hate Zionism for it carries the same message, different tribe.
Zionism was born in the days of imperialism, colonisation and fascism. Assassinations, mass murder, unlawful imprisonment, confiscation of property, denial of rights are all practised by fascism and Zionism. Israel was born in that mindset and still has that mentality.
The terrifying thing is that Britain, the US and Australia are all moving down that same track now as governments use "national security" as a smoke screen for big business getting bigger.
It's all about money and power. Lofty ideals, religion, and "liberating" others are the siren song that attracts the support of people who have not thought things through or who have not read widely to get informed. Our news media and the people they put in power protect the substantial people and blame their victims for their perpretator's sins.
We can really argue about this until the cows come home.
It follows the same pattern than the religion thread.
Forget about all the facts and excuses because nobody cares.
Reality is...
1) The Jews invented GOD and got the licence to prove it.
2) According to them, GOD gave them Israel and so it belongs to them.
3) Most of the world accept both of the above. Minus the Muslims. Which is hilarious considering that Islam was created almost 4000 years later by using 99% of the Old Testament.
4) Many countries have been lost through war during history and taken back again years later.
5) The Hebrews had to wait 2000 years to get their country back. Forget about all the excuses... Think about this logically... After waiting 2000 years to get your country back... What would it take for you to give it up again? I'll tell you... If you want Israel back... You going to have to nuke it first.
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The Jews revolted in A.D. 66 and drove out the Romans for a time. But in 70, the Roman general Titus conquered Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and took many Jewish captives to Rome. The Western, or Wailing, Wall in Jerusalem is all that remains of the Temple.
Some Jews, called Zealots, refused to surrender even after Jerusalem fell. Many Zealots retreated to a mountain fortress called Masada, where 960 men, women, and children held out for three years. As the Romans were about to conquer the fortress, the defenders committed suicide rather than surrender.
Maybe history could repeat itself. Only problem is that this time around, they do have the bomb... And the Arabs don't. So if anyone is going to get nuke... Guess who it is going to be?
You may not like it. You don't have to like it. But they don't care if you do or don't. They only care about their survival. And they will do whatever it takes. Because people sitting behind their keyboard in their warm cosy home in Australia does not rate on a scale of 1 to 1000. They don't rate at all. Because they have no idea whatsoever what it is like to live under the constant threat of a terrorist attack.
I only think about all this logically. Quite frankly, I am not like you people... I could not give a stuff if Israel and the whole Middle East disappeared tomorrow in a puff of smoke.
My attitude has always been to let every country deal with its own problems. If they want to kill each other... Good! It solves the planetary problem by reducing its over grown population.
If people don't want to learn to be civilise, they deserve to die for their stupidity. And that pretty much applies to every Middle East countries daring to challenge the West by force. Stupid! You won't get any sympathy from my part. When your boss treat you like sh*t, you don't go and blow up his house. If some Arab country feels like they are being treated like sh*t by the West, it is only because they are not good enough. The solution is to better yourself... Not fly planes into buildings.
United Nations secretary-general Kofi Annan says he is "deeply concerned" by an Israeli violation of the cease-fire in Lebanon.
In a statement, he says an Israeli raid in eastern Lebanon on Saturday has violated the cease-fire, and the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) has also noted several air violations by Israeli military aircraft.
"All such violations of Security Council resolution 1701 endanger the fragile calm that was reached after much negotiation and undermine the authority of the Government of Lebanon," the statement said.
Israeli commandos mounted a raid deep inside Lebanon yesterday in the biggest challenge yet to the six-day-old cease-fire that brought a halt to a month of conflict.
The UN Security Council resolution ordering the cease-fire was unanimously approved on August 11.
The fighting between Israel and Hezbollah has killed almost 1,450 people, mostly Lebanese civilians.
The Israeli army says one officer was killed and two others wounded in yesterday's dawn raid.
It says the raid was aimed at preventing arms being delivered to Hezbollah by Iran and Syria.
Israel's ambassador to Australia Naftali Tamir says there has been no violation of the truce.
"The resolution does permit us to prevent Hezbollah to, or anybody is able to prevent Hezbollah, from getting its ammunition from Iran and Syria, and that's exactly what we have been doing, and that's exactly what we are doing according to resolution," he said.
Mr Tamir says Israel is entitled to protect its own citizens from an unprovoked and indiscriminate attack.
"The 1701 resolution by the way does recognise the necessity to prevent the Hezbollah to rearm itself and that's exactly what we are doing in the absence of any force international or Lebanese that is willing to do so."
The Lebanese military said Israeli helicopters landed two Hummer vehicles in the mountainous region of Afqa as Israeli jets carried out mock raids as cover.
Israeli forces then drove eastward to the village of Buday, where they clashed with Hezbollah militants for about an hour before two helicopters retrieved them.
Lebanon has warned it might suspend the historic deployment of government troops to Hezbollah's bastion in the south if the UN fails to ensure Israel keeps its side of the bargain. Bush on democracy
United States President George W Bush says America will fight terror in the Middle East by strengthening democracy in countries such as Lebanon and Iraq.
In his weekly radio address, Mr Bush said the establishment of democracy in Lebanon and Iraq was essential for a secure future for America.
"The conflict in Lebanon is part of a broader struggle between freedom and terror that is unfolding across the region," he said.
"Terrorists and their sponsors recognise that the Middle East is at a pivotal moment in its history.
"Freedom has brought hope to millions and has helped foster the development of young democracies from Baghdad to Beirut.
"The terrorists fear the rise of democracy because they know what it means for the future of their hateful ideology.
"We will defeat the terrorists by strengthening young democracies across the broader Middle East." - AFP/BBC
Quite frankly, I am not like you people... I could not give a stuff if Israel and the whole Middle East disappeared tomorrow in a puff of smoke.
To your shame you have revealed your true colours.
You do not care for the lives of the people of the Middle East whatever their religion or nationality. Who do you care about? It sounds to me like you get angry because you are discomforted, listening to the latest news in your comfortable armchair. And you're angry why? Because you do not understand and therefore have only one emotion?
I am personally involved because my tax money and my elected representatives are committing war crimes on the same scale as any other war criminal. I am not happy about being lied to. I am not happy about people like yourself swallowing the coalition of the willing's paltry excuses and then voting the scoundrels back into power.
People who have doubled standards close their eyes to Anglo brutality and war crimes, but are quick to point the finger at everyone else.
Your side of the argument is imbued with hypocrisy. So the Masada suicides were brave and honorable, but Arab suiciders are cowardly. Is that it?
If Japan had occupied Australia in 1942, would you have advocated resistance to the occupation? Or could the whole Pacific gone up in a puff of smoke as well?
To your shame you have revealed your true colours.
You do not care for the lives of the people of the Middle East whatever their religion or nationality. Who do you care about? It sounds to me like you get angry because you are discomforted, listening to the latest news in your comfortable armchair.
I am not happy about people like yourself swallowing the coalition of the willing's paltry excuses and then voting the scoundrels back into power.
I am angry at the world's stupidity. I for one, have looked at the big picture all my life. When you look at the big picture, most things that people do are irrelevant. People cannot control the world anymore than they can control nature. Trying to do so is a waste of your life.
When was the last time a Palestinian or a Lebanese went on the Net and expressed its concerne for the problems every Australian face every day?
I have never voted for John Howard and never will. But it has nothing to do with Iraq. I just don't like being lied to.
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If Japan had occupied Australia in 1942, would you have advocated resistance to the occupation? Or could the whole Pacific gone up in a puff of smoke as well?
I would put my life on the line to defend Australia if we were invaded. And I would make sure that I kill at least 10 of the bastards before they get me. But if Australia decides to declare war on another country for no good reason... Count me out. I will fight for my country, but I wont be the puppet of any government.
But that was something else I was thinking about yesterday. If it had not been for the US, we would all be speaking Japanese today.
Same goes for Europe. If the US had not stepped in, Hitler would have ruled Europe. All the Jews would be dead and Israel would never have existed. Hitler would have got the Atom bomb by 1945 or 1946. He hated the Black as much as the Jews. So God knows what he would have done to Africa. And do you think Hitler would have tolerated Muslims wearing a veil?
I don't like George Bush anymore than you do. He is a nothing. He is the puppet of his father and the government administration. But that is no reason to knock America. America has done a lot of good things and still do.
But that was something else I was thinking about yesterday. If it had not been for the US, we would all be speaking Japanese today.
Well General Macarthur's grand plan for Australia was the Brisbane Line. Thanks be that Australia told America to get stuffed and moved into New Guinea and further north to fight the Japanese there.
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Same goes for Europe. If the US had not stepped in, Hitler would have ruled Europe.
Hang on again a distortion of history. Yes America did help Europe but so did Russia. In fact on sheer numbers and lives loss Russia did far more to defeat Hitler than America did.
Also America was quite happy to sit on the fence and allow Hitler to go on his merry way until the war through Japan affected America personally. If Japan hadn't attacked the US then in all likelyhood America wouldn't have come into the war. It would have supported Hitler just as it has supported many dictators throughout history as long as it suits America. America only ever cares about America and everything it does is for itself, and if that means propping up evil dictators then so be it. Right now America is supporting a dictator as bad as Saddam ever was and don't forget for decades they supported Saddam, giving him billions in military aid.
Even now American history books have WWII occurring from 1941-1945, the time they were involved, when in fact the war had been going for two years previously as the US sat on the fence.
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All the Jews would be dead and Israel would never have existed. Hitler would have got the Atom bomb by 1945 or 1946. He hated the Black as much as the Jews. So God knows what he would have done to Africa. And do you think Hitler would have tolerated Muslims wearing a veil?
That is all pure speculation and hypothesis. You or no one else can know what would have happened if one path or another happened or didn't happen.
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But that is no reason to knock America. America has done a lot of good things and still do.
So because America does some good things it allows it to do as many bad things as it likes? They balance each other out do they?
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
I don't like George Bush anymore than you do. He is a nothing. He is the puppet of his father and the government administration. But that is no reason to knock America. America has done a lot of good things and still do.
The bottom line is you cannot trust any country, and certainly not a country who's motives are not pure to control the world order.
Ever wondered why America doesn't invade to liberate latin America or Africa or parts of Asia where the people are living under as much terror as those in the middle-east?
It's simple, there's nothing in it for them. How can we trust a country who doesn't actually give a crap about freedom and liberty and all that other crap they spout unless there's strategic gain for them.
It is quite clear that America has plans to reform (read: control) the middle east. And we being their lackey will do whatever they ask. This will mean signficantly more military involvement in their future liberating missions which our army cannot support, which will mean a future Government (if Labor ever get into power I hope they're not as stupid as the Liberals and say no to America) will need to seriously consider conscription.
I'm not sure if you will have children of conscription age if/when this time comes, I for one will and the thought of sending my son(s) to fight America's wars (or any kind of war) makes me sick.
Well General Macarthur's grand plan for Australia was the Brisbane Line. Thanks be that Australia told America to get stuffed and moved into New Guinea and further north to fight the Japanese there.
Brisbane line or not, it was America who defeated the Japanese and ended the war. Nobody else.
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Hang on again a distortion of history. Yes America did help Europe but so did Russia. In fact on sheer numbers and lives loss Russia did far more to defeat Hitler than America did.
That's a matter of opinion. Russia only fought its own invasion. I don't recall them helping the West. Yes they were a few strategic attacks to divert the Germans towards Russia to relieve the pressure on the West. If you want to know why Russia lost so many men, watch the movie "Ennemy at the gates".
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If Japan hadn't attacked the US then in all likelyhood America wouldn't have come into the war. It would have supported Hitler just as it has supported many dictators throughout history as long as it suits America.
Now hold on a minute. Stop drinking and stop talking non-sense. To say that America would have supported Hitler is going overboard.
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That is all pure speculation and hypothesis. You or no one else can know what would have happened if one path or another happened or didn't happen.
My speculation is far more possible and pretty much accurate, rather than yours having America supporting Hitler.
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So because America does some good things it allows it to do as many bad things as it likes? They balance each other out do they?
Is that not how it works for every individual on the planet? I am still yet to meet someone who is perfect.
Ever wondered why America doesn't invade to liberate latin America or Africa or parts of Asia where the people are living under as much terror as those in the middle-east?
It's simple, there's nothing in it for them. How can we trust a country who doesn't actually give a crap about freedom and liberty and all that other crap they spout unless there's strategic gain for them.
But, what's get me is that everyone put the whole blame on America. The whole West is just as guilty of this as America. The whole of Europe and Australia needs the oil from the Middle East. Why don't Australia and Europe goes to fight for the freedom of Latin America, Africa and Asia?
I'll tell you why... No-one has the resources to save the world from itself. Why does Australia have some 140 different nationalities? We do our bit to help the people throughout the world. But we cannot afford to bring a billion people in Australia in order to rescue them from poverty and oppression.
People easily forget that most of the world was living under oppressive conditions 300 years ago. We had to fight for the freedom we enjoy today. And the people of those third world countries have to do the same. We cannot do it for them. Iraq is a very good example of that. If they had enough balls to remove Saddam Hussein, we would not be in Iraq today. But they were scare of big bad Saddam Hussein and did not want to die. Well... To change things... People have to die. That's reality. No-one is going to give you your freedom served on a plateau.
Our ancestors gave their lives away so that their children and grand-children could enjoy the rewards of their sacrifice... Today. It is not our job to go and save the world. Our job is to look after the interests of Australia. If we have something left over, we can help in a humanitarian way.
There are also a lot of poor people in Australia. Maybe we should start thinking about them. Perhaps we don't care about them because they don't rate in the news.
Brisbane line or not, it was America who defeated the Japanese and ended the war. Nobody else
That's a matter of opinion. Russia only fought its own invasion. I don't recall them helping the West. Yes they were a few strategic attacks to divert the Germans towards Russia to relieve the pressure on the West. If you want to know why Russia lost so many men, watch the movie "Ennemy at the gates".
My speculation is far more possible and pretty much accurate
Exactly - couldn't have said it better its YOUR speculation
"That's a matter of opinion" - Wrong yet again - its fact Russia played a bigger role than you imagine
"America who defeated the Japanese"
again you have a bad case of foot in mouth - It was the Allies that defeated Japan - Just cause USA dropped the bomb didn't make them the ONLY person your disrepect for the troups that Died is down right deplorable.
"Enemy at the gates" you base your whole argument on a movie? - next you'll be sprouting that the Mississippi river was over run by a Mouse in a paddlesteamer
Exactly - couldn't have said it better its YOUR speculation
"That's a matter of opinion" - Wrong yet again - its fact Russia played a bigger role than you imagine
"America who defeated the Japanese"
again you have a bad case of foot in mouth - It was the Allies that defeated Japan - Just cause USA dropped the bomb didn't make them the ONLY person your disrepect for the troups that Died is down right deplorable.
"Enemy at the gates" you base your whole argument on a movie? - next you'll be sprouting that the Mississippi river was over run by a Mouse in a paddlesteamer
<EDIT by SuziH>
Your only contribution so far has been to have a go at me everytime you think you can. <EDIT by SuziH>
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