America has brought terrorism to our doorstep because they've done what they perceive as in our best interests. I would prefer to be paying $10 a litre for petrol rather than have terrorism. At least that way it would have forced us to invest in alternate sources of fuel and energy.
Read Stephen Kinzer's book "Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change From Hawaii to Iraq."
Yes America overthrew the regime of Hawii and even sent in a warship and troops to do so. Why?
An American sugar tycoon was ripping off the Hawiian king of the time and basically used native Hawaiians as slave labour. The king threw him out of the country, America responded by militarily overthrowing the king and making Hawaii an American state, giving all the sugar plantations to American interests. That has been the story of all their regime overthrows, it always has to do with American business interests, which America honestly believe is their God given right to rule the world in.
---------------- Here is a list from another book on America's interference in other countries affairs.
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The actual number is at least 20 democracies overthrown since WW2. And that’s only the democracies.
A partial list…
1947 Greece - President Truman requests military aid to Greece to support right-wing forces. The CIA backs notorious Greek leaders with deplorable human rights records.
1949 Syria - CIA backs a military coup overthrowing the elected government of Syria and establishes a military dictatorship under Colonel Za'im.
1953 Iran - CIA overthrows the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in a military coup, after he threatened to nationalize British oil.
1954 Guatemala - CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup.
1954-1958 North Vietnam - CIA officer Edward Lansdale spends four years trying to overthrow the “communist” land reform government of North Vietnam, using all the usual dirty tricks.
1957-1973 Laos - The CIA carries out approximately one coup per year trying to nullify Laos’ democratic elections.
1959 Haiti - The U.S. military helps “Papa Doc” Duvalier become dictator of Haiti.
1961 Dominican Republic - The CIA assassinates Rafael Trujillo, a murderous dictator Washington has supported since 1930.
1961 Ecuador - CIA-backed military forces depose democratically elected President Jose Velasco.
1961 Congo (Zaire) - The CIA assassinates the democratically elected Patrice Lumumba.
1963 Dominican Republic - The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup and installs a repressive junta.
1963 Iraq - Iraqi leader Abdul Karim Kassem assassinated in a coup organized by the CIA and the British. Abdel-Salim Aref and Saddam Hussein along with their Baath Party are installed into power.
1964 Brazil - A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the democratically elected government of Joao Goulart for a murderous junta.
1965 Philippines – Marcos put into power as de facto dictator over the Philippines as a result of CIA backed overthrow of the nation.
1965 Indonesia - The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Sukarno with a military coup.
1970 Cambodia - The CIA overthrows admired Prince Sahounek for CIA puppet Lon Nol followed by the Khmer Rouge (led by Pol Pot), that massacres millions of its own people.
1971 Bolivia - After half a decade of CIA-inspired political turmoil, a CIA-backed military coup overthrows President Juan Torres. for dictator Hugo Banzer who tortures, rapes and executes opponents.
1973 Chile - The CIA overthrows and assassinates democratically elected Salvador Allende and replaces him with General Augusto Pinochet, who will torture and murder thousands.
1975 Australia - The CIA topples the democratically elected government of Prime Minister Edward Whitlam thru Governor-General, John Kerr.
1989 Panama - The U.S. invades Panama to overthrow a CIA installed dictator of its own making in General Manuel Noriega. Noriega has been on the CIA’s payroll since 1966, and has been transporting drugs with the CIA’s knowledge since 1972 (Noriega was considered “difficult”).
1990 Haiti - CIA-backed military deposes democratically elected Jean-Bertrand Aristide him. More military dictators brutalize the country.
Don't agree the CIA overthrew Whitlam, though the US really had it in for Gough at the time and tried to get rid of him officially on several occassions.
The CIA currently is interfering in several anti-US democracies, mostly to do with oil interests.
Read the unbelievably horrific story "The Blindfold's Eyes: My Journey from Torture to Truth" by Dianna Ortiz (a nun at the time of her torture). America has done everything to attempt to discredit this woman since her revelations on the CIA's interference and direct supervision of torture. This book will not fail to move you and make you very angry.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
As I states where has this statement been made or are you just assuming.
You have made this statement and indicating that this is a fact - show us all the link to the speech or comment or infact ANY media that says the US or Israel has stated that they are acting on Australias behalf in regards to your topic about the current crisis in the region.
Perhaps "representing" was the wrong word and too strong a word.
But at the same time, most people would know what I mean.
We are allied with the US. By that simple fact, any friend of the US is our friend.
Just try telling the Australian Jewish community that we don't approve of Israel... And watch out! Forget about the US. We cannot afford not to back Israel. All hell would break loose in our own backyard. You just have to look at what happened to Mel Gibson. All he said was "The Jews are responsible for all wars". He was probably piss off at the present situation as well.
Without in anyway condoning them or supporting them, fact is that Hizbollah with old Soviet weapons are engaging face to face the far superior in numbers and techology Israeli military ever day and are giving the Israelis a bloody nose. The Israeli military have said themselves they are taking many casualities and it has been harder to fight them than they anticipated. Imagine if Hizbollah had equal numbers and technology to Israel along with air support? They are not cowards AO, and what about the cowardly Israelis who use hi-tech weapons to lob phosphorous shells (illegal btw) from 20km away and drop 2000lb laser guided bombs unseen from the air onto civilians. They have to hide behind their technology to fight and when they have to engage face to face they are matched and often beaten by fighters with very old weapons.
I do realise that supporting the underdog is a National pastime in Australia. However, I do believe that admiring and applauding each time a terrorist succeed in killing an Israeli... is in very poor taste.
But then again, considering your hate for the US and Israel, I guess it is understandable.
I do realise that supporting the underdog is a National pastime in Australia. However, I do believe that admiring and applauding each time a terrorist succeed in killing an Israeli... is in very poor taste.
But then again, considering your hate for the US and Israel, I guess it is understandable.
Please, just point out once anywhere that I have admired and applauded a terrorist, just once please. The old fall back of generalisations and false accusations when someone posts facts they don't like and dispels their mindless rhetoric rants, or goes against their blind faith or belief in something or someone.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
You could (perhaps to a lesser degree) say the same about the U.S., only they would prefer that no innocents (ours or theirs) were killed but do they actually care if any do get killed? I don't think so.
You better believe it. They do care! Even if they don't personally, publicly, they have to care. Their political life depends on it.
However, governments have an army for the sole purpose of fighting wars. You don't fight wars without casualties. If a political leader cannot handle having some casualties during a war, he should not go to war... And for that matter, don't bother having an army.
We don't have an army for the fun of it. What most people fail to understand is that we have these little wars to prevent anyone building enough power to start World War III. And considering that we did not had a major war for 61 years, the concept seem to work.
If the Internet and these forums had existed 30 years ago, the discussion would have been very different. Because the people of the seventies still had World War II fresh in their memories.
Sure there was the anti-Vietnam protests by a young generation of hippies who are probably your parents (for some of you). But Vietnam was different. The protests were mostly because of the heavy casualties we were taking for a war which did not affect us at home.
Terrorism affect everyone of us. That is the difference. But for many of you, it will take a terrorist bomb in the centre of one of our cities before you wake up to the reality.
I wonder if two planes had been flown in the centre of Sydney and 3000 innocents Australians had been killed... Would we be having this conversation?
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For example although now making a resurgence the electric car was more or less killed off in the 1900's due to capitalist greed: automakers and the auto parts industry stood to lose billions in revenue for parts and maintenance; oil companies were concerned their monopoly on fuel was in jeopardy; politicians sided with corporate interests.
Perhaps... Assumption or reality... I don't know.
But keep one thing in mind. We are in 2006 and we still have not found a way to store enough energy to run a car for more than a few kilometres. How would you do Sydney - Melbourne in an electric car?
Electric cars might be fun for city slickers and would be useful in big cities. But they have a very long way to go before they can fully replace your everyday car. Particulary in a country like Australia where most people have to travel long distances.
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The worst mistake we can make is to ally ourselves too closely with America.
A bit late to think about that... I would think. We are in it up to our neck.
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They use and abuse anyone for their own gain.
Does not everyone?
The only difference with the US is that it has the goods and the power to suck people in. Face it! We envy their lifestyle and we want what they have. Every Street kid around the bloc is dressed like an American teenager and listening to American music.
Terrorism affect everyone of us. That is the difference. But for many of you, it will take a terrorist bomb in the centre of one of our cities before you wake up to the reality.
Including Sep 11 2001, London, Madrid and Bali, the chances of being affected by terrorism just about anywhere in the world, including London (where I was during the underground bombings) but not including Iraq yet including Israel (where I also was last year staying opposite a suicide bombed cafe) are extremely remote.
The threat of terrorism by the likes of Howard, Blair and Bush are mostly a political ploy to keep their populations scared and the government in favour appearing to be strong, and to also use it as an excuse to undermine democracy by bringing in so called anti-terrorist legislation that does away with basic human rights and democractic principals, making the government in the large part unaccountable to the people. The second biggest reason for Howard's popularity is that people believe he keeps them safe as he is hard on terrorists and refugees.
I'll put it this way. If Howard spent just 10% of the money he spends on anti-terrorism and scare the people campaigns on road infrastructure to curb the annual road toll, he would save more lives and injuries each year than would be killed or injured from terrorist attacks in 20 years.
-------------- Just in. Israel jets attacked the people attending the funeral of 21 of the 41 killed in the apartment building bombed by Israel last week. They have also shelled a squalid refugee camp killing two and injuring many children. This has nothing whatsover to do with attacking Hizbollah strongholds as Israel always claim, this has everything to do with a projection of power and the punishing of Arabs as a lesson to all Arabs in the region.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
Terrorism affect everyone of us. That is the difference. But for many of you, it will take a terrorist bomb in the centre of one of our cities before you wake up to the reality.
I wonder if two planes had been flown in the centre of Sydney and 3000 innocents Australians had been killed... Would we be having this conversation?
It's like all you read was the front page of the newspapers following the terrorist attacks against the west and have not bothered to think beyond "terrorist muslims killed 3000 people in America, 56 in London, and 202 in Bali".
It's great thinkers like you that perpetuate this cycle of violence that the world has been embroyled in since the dark ages.
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The only difference with the US is that it has the goods and the power to suck people in. Face it! We envy their lifestyle and we want what they have. Every Street kid around the bloc is dressed like an American teenager and listening to American music.
For a first world country America has:
- 13% of it's population below the poverty line - No free healthcare - Most families can't afford to send their kids to University - Extremely high homicide rates - Extremely high drug addiction
It's like all you read was the front page of the newspapers following the terrorist attacks against the west and have not bothered to think beyond "terrorist muslims killed 3000 people in America, 56 in London, and 202 in Bali".
It's great thinkers like you that perpetuate this cycle of violence that the world has been embroyled in since the dark ages.
I know what you are saying... America gave a valid reason for the terrorists to do it... And we should take it on the chin and go on with our lives.
I am afraid... It does not work that way. And quite frankly, if America had been so wrong towards the Arab world, should it not be every Arab countries declaring war against the west rather than a few terrorists? If your argument about America was right, why are half of the people of Iraq on our side? Why are they seeking our help to rebuild their country and establish a democracy?
Why do you believe the propaganda from the terrorists but don't believe anything the west has to say. Why is everyone on this forum quoting articles from journalists who are just as biased as anybody else? I don't quote anyone. I use simple logic.
I believe more and more, that terrorists don't have a cause at all. After all, terrorists don't have a country or a government. They work for themselves. They are simple murderers who are pretending to have a cause.
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For a first world country America has:
- 13% of it's population below the poverty line - No free healthcare - Most families can't afford to send their kids to University - Extremely high homicide rates - Extremely high drug addiction
The list can go on ...
Is this what you want in order to "be cool"?
Hey! I was born in France and I don't need America to be cool. First, let me correct you... It is 40% of the American population who is below the poverty line. Most of them are black and the rest hispanic.
I hate people wearing long shorts. While lose tee-shirts, 3 sizes too big are comfortable, they are sloppy. And I hate rap music.
There is nothing cool about America. But our teenagers love anything American. After all, their parents bring them up on Mac Donald and Kentucky Fried Chicken. Two third of what they watch on tele is American. Everyone of their favorite movie is American. So why wouldn't they love America?
The threat of terrorism by the likes of Howard, Blair and Bush are mostly a political ploy to keep their populations scared and the government in favour appearing to be strong, and to also use it as an excuse to undermine democracy by bringing in so called anti-terrorist legislation that does away with basic human rights and democractic principals, making the government in the large part unaccountable to the people.
That is not a fact. It is an assumption by cynical people. The only ones at risk of having their democratic rights tread on are the Muslims living in Australia. But so did the Germans and Japaneses living in Australia during WW II. It goes with the territory.
As far as I can see, everyone of your posts is anti-America, anti-Israel and anti-John Howard. But John Howard has done nothing to stop you.
As far as I can see, John Howard is far more understanding than the people on this forum. The Administration asked me to remove my avatar because a few religious bigots were offended by Madonna on a cross. That's democracy at work for you. The majority rules. So where are my rights? I have none if two or more people are against me.
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I'll put it this way. If Howard spent just 10% of the money he spends on anti-terrorism and scare the people campaigns on road infrastructure to curb the annual road toll, he would save more lives and injuries each year than would be killed or injured from terrorist attacks in 20 years.
I already told you about that. The road toll cannot be reduced anymore that it has already been. If you want zero road toll... Ban the motor car.
If your argument about America was right, why are half of the people of Iraq on our side? Why are they seeking our help to rebuild their country and establish a democracy?
But that's wrong, only a very small percentage of Iraqis are on our side and nearly everyone wants us out but now know the place is such a mess that America can't leave or they would be in a deeper s**t.
Do you know why they voted for the current Iraqi government in their last election, even though America poured millions into the campaign for another party. because the party that won promised at the first opportunity they would kick out the Americans. Just recently they went against the Americans in a major decision but make no bones about it, it is not the Iraqis ruling Iraq at the moment but America. To show by how much, Iraq is the only oil producing country in the world not to have its oil metered and Haliburton was given the exclusive contract to manage Iraq's oil. It is estimated hundreds of millions of dollars of Iraq's oil has been stolen from the Iraqi people for the benefit of America. I can post the proof of the billions in corruption going on in Iraq, mostly by American companies given exclusive contracts in Iraq.
America has built the largest embassy ever built in the Green Zone of Baghdad, it is staffed by over 2000 Americans, cost US$200+ million and not one thing happens in Iraq without that embassy's say so.
In spite of what the Bush administration attempts to say, things are far worse now for the people of Iraq than they ever were under Saddam, even when the harshest sanctions ever imposed on a country were at their peak. That is not just me saying that but the CIA and the leading US generals.
I could quote tons of facts and figures and heaps of reputable links, but it would only bog down the thread. America is only still in Iraq because they have made such a mess of it (and now Afghanistan as that country goes rapidly backwards) that the Iraqi people know for the Americans to pull out now would mean a massive civil war and the ruination of their country. They don't want the Americans, their voting in the last election proved that, they suffer the Americans until they can be in a position to kick them out.
BTW the Americans have no plans to ever fully leave Iraq as they have build three permanent military bases there, one massive one, which Rumsfeld himself said will never be abandoned.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
Just go to show that you should not believe everything you read.
Why do you suddenly believe the US? Do you think the US government is going to tell you the truth about its poverty rate? Remember New-Orleans last year?
I could quote tons of facts and figures and heaps of reputable links, but it would only bog down the thread. America is only still in Iraq because they have made such a mess of it (and now Afghanistan as that country goes rapidly backwards) that the Iraqi people know for the Americans to pull out now would mean a massive civil war and the ruination of their country. They don't want the Americans, their voting in the last election proved that, they suffer the Americans until they can be in a position to kick them out.
There has never been any suggestion that America would be ruling Iraq. The only reason the Americans are still there is because of the rebels who used to work for Saddam Hussein, have continually fought to regain control.
It is very much like the situation between Israel and Palestine. Two people hating each other while living in one country.
If America leaves, the rebels will kill every Iraquian which wanted democracy.
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BTW the Americans have no plans to ever fully leave Iraq as they have build three permanent military bases there, one massive one, which Rumsfeld himself said will never be abandoned.
That is common for America. They had American bases in Germany and Japan since WW II. That don't mean that they rule the country. They just stay there to prevent the same thing happening again.
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