I think you will find Gizmo is being serious and not sarcastic, Dara. If Giz is ever sarcastic you will know it from how she says it. If that makes any sense, I always know when Gizmo is taking the micky out of something or being tongue in cheek/sarcastic.
Then they may call themselves Christian but that does not make it true. If they have never read the Bible so as to know what God requires of them as Christians . . then their claim is not valid (in Gods eyes).*just like I can call myself a plumber if I want. . but that does not make it true if I have not learned the trade*
When you are baptise as an infant in order to become a Christian, you are not required to read the Bible. By age 10, you are attending some religious classes in order to do your communion by age 12. So after doing my communion at age 12, I was a full fledged Catholic. Funny thing about it... Is that up to then, nobody ever asked me if I wanted to be one or not. My family made that decision for me.
In my humble opinion, in this day and age, and knowing what I know, religion should not be pushed or taught to children. Religion should be something you choose to take up or not when you become an adult at age 18.
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Sadly that is not true. There is a lot more to being a Christian than simply knowing the 10 commandments. True Christians study Gods word carefully so as to understand it as best they can and the 10 Commandments are a good start. . but that is not all there is to know.
You mean religious people study God's words. The majority of Christians are like me. The only reason that they are Christian is because their parents did baptise them.
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That is a good point . .so why do so many professed christians join the army to kill others at the governments bidding?
Because most Christian do not mix religion with real life. A very religious person would not enlist in the army... And if forced to, would demand an exemption, which they would get.
Religion is a private thing. You go out for the day and do whatever you have to do to feed your family. Then before going to bed, you make your peace with GOD. GOD is very forgiving. But he won't feed your family.
Very religious people are usually poor and they like to say that "GOD makes the people he loves suffer". In which case I respond "Tell him to leave me alone. I don't want to be loved."
I am a very confused Catholic. I believe in GOD because I was taught to believe in GOD. And I cannot do anything about it. At the same time, history and science tells me that GOD is a hoax which was created by the Hebrew 5000 years ago. Before that time, our GOD did not exist, but the planet and man surely did.
Then they may call themselves Christian but that does not make it true. If they have never read the Bible so as to know what God requires of them as Christians . . then their claim is not valid (in Gods eyes).*just like I can call myself a plumber if I want. . but that does not make it true if I have not learned the trade*
I'm plucking this out, and I know it was already used as an arguing point and plucked in a couner arguement. That's coincidal to me using it.
I haven't read all the thread. I've read some, I don't any agree with any one person entirely from what I have read and I emphasise that just to further point out that this doesn't have much to do with the debate Gizmo and AOL have going. I picked this out because, first becuase I noticed it, and also because I felt that it's very important to emphasise that there isn't a Tom, d**k, Jane, or Jan on this Earth who can be trusted to say with any authority that someone is or is not Christian or saved or worthy... in fact everyone is worthy from what I get out of it. At times I find myself also playing with the idea of "who the hell am I to even assume that I am saved" but perhaps that's just insecurity or lack of faith at those times. Anyhow, as hard as it is to keep my head around it (often impossible to do so), I don't think it's our job, nor do I think we're capable, of making God's judgements for Him.
In my humble opinion, in this day and age, and knowing what I know, religion should not be pushed or taught to children. Religion should be something you choose to take up or not when you become an adult at age 18.
That usually does happen. Some children are raised in a religious environment, but then later stop going to church on Sundays and follow the teachings.
But if religion isn't taught to children, what are the chances of them following a religious life when they are an adult? They would know nothing about religion if it's not taught to them. Some parents, at least, want to give their children an opportunity to learn about God and the teachings of the church, and therefore lead a religious life later on.
. . . I picked this out because, first becuase I noticed it, and also because I felt that it's very important to emphasise that there isn't a Tom, d**k, Jane, or Jan on this Earth who can be trusted to say with any authority that someone is or is not Christian or saved or worthy... in fact everyone is worthy from what I get out of it. . . . .
My comment was aimed at stating the absolutely obvious. . if somebody is making a claim about their faith . . and at the same time acting in a way contrary to Bible teachings . . . then they would not be considered Christian or in an approved state by God. Humans are not the final arbiters , God is. . but as there are thousands of scriptures that advise Christians to keep watch of themselves, not to 'fall away' from their faith or act in ways that could kill or main other people because they will be held accountable. . They might decide to stop doing the things that are condemned by God and that would mean they can resume a clean relationship/faith.
There are directions for Christians to not be violent, drunkards, slanderers, murderers or even idol worshippers so if somebody IS acting in those ways. . there are warnings for christians not to be joining them .
It is OK to read the scripture that tells us that God forgives all. . . because He is willing to do just that. . but one must also read the other directions given to be in an approved state . . forgiveness is not absolute. . . it is conditional on changing oneself to conform to Gods standards and then maintaining those changes.
Don't be frightened to look sideways at what people do in the name of their faith. We are all doing it now with radical Muslims. The population of Muslims of quiet nature and peacefull living standards are appalled by the 'terrorist' radicals . . just like we are. We are told that the terrorists do not act in the faith of true Islam when they commit their acts of treachery. . . . so a judgement is made about their actions and a very negative conclusion is reached. It is the same for Christians. . . look at their actions and see if they fit the high standards you would expect from ones who claim to follow Holy standards.
DEMOCRACY = Voters deciding by Poll on who will be the local member that "Big Business" will push around.
What I hate about religions is you can never win an argument against someone who is religious as they always revert back to "faith", and you can't logically argue any point when the other side just says they have faith, even if they cannot prove anything. This is even more so for the current crap of "Intelligent Design", which even George Bush believes in. Currently nearly every piece of nature the Intelligent Designers have raised as "proof" of some higher diety's hand has been shot down by scientists.
What makes the Christian religions doubtful as a valid entity is their whole basis for being is founded on one book made up of a new and old part. The book is supposedly a collection of historical facts and real stories handed down through the ages, yet nearly every year more and more errors and matters that never happened or existed are being uncovered. So much so that even the Christian church has come out and stated that much of the Bible is not actually factually based, but is a set of stories told to make a point. The Bible Evangelicals and Christian priests love to quote from the pulpits as absolute proof of something is not even in many cases close to the original scripts as written. The book has been rewritten so many times and whole sections have had meanings completely changed from the original intent.
Even the meaning of the word Bible has been altered. Its literal translation was originally "The Idea of God" and was changed by the Christian church to "The Word of God". So the Bible wasn't originally the word of God at all, but actually an idea of what worshippers thought their God would be like and what that God would most likely bring down as laws and tenets.
Also the bible is only a fraction of the original written scriptures. Most of the original scrolls were burnt as firewood and many others were destroyed by the Christian church in a pogrom as they didn't contain teachings the church liked or they contradicted the teachings of the church. The recently found Gospel according to Judas is one example of that, and this newly discovered gospel talks of a secret pact between Jesus and Judas. This of course went completely against the church's teachings on Judas at the time so the church ordered a pogrom for every copy of the Judas Gospel to be expunged from the Earth.
Also the earlier non-published or destroyed scriptures had a far greater role for women in the religion, this went completely against the all male dominated Christian church so these were either altered to remove references to women or they were also destroyed.
I saw a BBC doco on the scriptures quite a while ago and in it they show some of the very early texts under glass in a museum in Israel. On one page a word has been crossed out from the first paragraph on that page and another word substituted in the margin. The Israeli linguist stated this one alteration completely changed the whole meaning of the paragraph, yet to this day evangelists and priests alike quote this altered text in their sermons as the one true "word of God". No it isn't, it is the altered word of man from a text that was an idea of God.
There is so much more I could convey on this but a good starting point is the recent multi-part documentary series on the historical factual basis of the Bible shown on SBS. A real eye opener.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
Also the earlier non-published or destroyed scriptures had a far greater role for women in the religion, this went completely against the all male dominated Christian church so these were either altered to remove references to women or they were also destroyed.
If the Bible is truly Gods word. . do you think any man could stop it from being available to any who want/need to read it??. . if there is a God and he has a purpose for men . . then he certainly has the power to protect HIS own word and see it gets through to faithful followers. If books or scrolls were lost. . . then they obviously were not protected in any divine way as the existing 66 boooks were. . . .after 25 years of study into the subject I have found all those supposed 'errors' to be non-existant . . but you have your opinion . .
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I saw a BBC doco on the scriptures .
Well. . .that is always a good source of information . .you've got me there .
*note: for Dara. . that was Gizmo being cheeky*
DEMOCRACY = Voters deciding by Poll on who will be the local member that "Big Business" will push around.
What I hate about religions is you can never win an argument against someone who is religious as they always revert back to "faith"
On the other side of that, though, is that people do not want to recognise that their ideas, their theories, are just that... ideas and theories and also can not hold up without faith. We aren't dis-agreeing over mathematic principles or that the sky keeps on going but about a fundamental thing that requires faith from either perspective.
On the other side of that, though, is that people do not want to recognise that their ideas, their theories, are just that... ideas and theories and also can not hold up without faith. We aren't dis-agreeing over mathematic principles or that the sky keeps on going but about a fundamental thing that requires faith from either perspective.
We are not talking ideas and theories but scientific and historical fact. One of the most ingrained tenets in the Bible is the Exodus, but archeology and Egyptian historical records have proven this just did not take place. For a starters it is a myth that Egyptians kept armies of slaves to build the pyramids. They used indentured labour, mostly seasonal farmers whose crops were out of season, not only that they looked after these workers extremely well, feeding them the best food and having large medical centres to heal their work related injuries. Many Jews, because of severe drought and crop failures, went to Egypt to seek work, all this is on the Egyptian historical records and they were a race that documented everything. Every plant, every grain, every building and every person down to fine detail was documented in Egypt, yet not one word on a supposed 600,000 Jewish slaves anywhere (the Egyptian population was 3.5 million at the time).
My point in all this is that the Bible is mostly historically and archeologically inaccurate and very little of what it says takes place actually happened at all and many of the time scales for known events are widely inaccurate in the Bible.
Gizmo says he has studied the subject for 25 years then can he explain why Joseph and a pregnant Mary bypassed two census stations that had ample accomodation and were far closer to their home town, yet undertook a very arduous journey, especially for a pregnant woman, to go to Bethlehem where there was a known accomodation shortage. Read the transcripts from the Roman historical documents of the time.
According to your logic this also means that God meant for the Gospel according to Judas to be found in the desert recently. A gospel the church put out a pogrom against and thought every copy destroyed, and I can understand why. It clearly shows that Judas didn't betray Jesus as such but did so as a pact with Jesus and on Jesus's instructions. No wonder the church wanted this scripture destroyed as it was the opposite of the lies they were teaching about Judas.
So Gizmo just because it is the BBC it automatically makes it rubbish?
That is the other thing I hate about religion, it blinkers people and closes their minds.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
According to your logic this also means that God meant for the Gospel according to Judas to be found in the desert recently.
I don't know where you got that from. According to my logic I'm fairly ignorant by nature when it comes to things like that.
Whether or not historical fact is always very factual is pretty debatalbe but fair enough to state it how you did. God's will, the unknown, and even just plain improbibilities (although a thin argument, the last one... unless talking about some science fiction jargon it seems) are all valid explanations as much as anything else. In fact, "We aren't really too sure about what went on 2000 or 5000 years ago," is a way more accurate statement than "Religion is false," which I was more what I was replying to so I'll state it again in that light:
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What I hate about religions is you can never win an argument against someone who is religious as they always revert back to "faith"
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On the other side of that, though, is that people do not want to recognise that their ideas, their theories, are just that... ideas and theories and also can not hold up without faith. We aren't dis-agreeing over mathematic principles or that the sky keeps on going but about a fundamental thing that requires faith from either perspective.
And I'll go on to say that it always will come back to that.
What I hate about religions is you can never win an argument against someone who is religious as they always revert back to "faith", and you can't logically argue any point when the other side just says they have faith, even if they cannot prove anything.
I don't have a problem with that, whatever works for them. Some people need to believe in a higher power, others don't.
In response to an earlier question of how will children know to lead a 'good' life without religion, easy, teach them the difference between right and wrong and teach them the importance of respecting others. It's not that hard.
I, much like AO, was baptised at birth but have struggled with the concept of religion in my adult life.
If there was a God, why would he allow so much suffering?
When I ask why a child dies every 3 seconds, or why a child is murdered and raped, or why a baby or young child develops cancer and dies I don't think I am satisfied with the responses of "God works in mysterious ways" or "God has a plan for everyone" that 'believers' tell you.
If life is supposed to be so sacred, why is their so much pain and sufferring in the world? What are the people that are dying from starvation, disease or war supposed to get out of life?
I believe faith is an answer for the "unknown", and that unknown is something that we as humans cannot understand nor are we willing to accept that nothing happens after we die.
I believe we are going through a major shift in religious belief in the western world. Most of us, through education and access to information, are not willing to accept what the church has been telling us. Many people have probably lost respect for the church as an organisation following the sex abuse scandals. Opting for a more "faith" rather than "religion" based approach.
I think you may find that there'll be an increasing number of people ticking "No Religion" on their Census form this year, I know I for one did.
That usually does happen. Some children are raised in a religious environment, but then later stop going to church on Sundays and follow the teachings.
But if religion isn't taught to children, what are the chances of them following a religious life when they are an adult? They would know nothing about religion if it's not taught to them. Some parents, at least, want to give their children an opportunity to learn about God and the teachings of the church, and therefore lead a religious life later on.
How is making them believe in god an opportunity? why do people read the bible it's not like god wrote it? pfft.. religion is annoying
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