With the current debate on the RU486 abortion pill lighting the pilot light on the abortion debate, again we find our pollies trying to enforce their religious viewpoints onto us.
I thought this was a well written article in The Age a few months ago. Something we should all consider ...
I'm not sure where I stand yet on the issue of teaching religion in school. However, I agree that a single religion should not be taught at state schools, rather a mixture covering some of the more prominant religions in this country would be more appropriate. Having people only consider one religion leads to the bigotry and intolerance towards other religions we are currently seeing in society.
I went to a Catholic school and remember yawning through religion classes. The difference between right and wrong in my opinion should be taught at home. I wonder if the current under 40 year olds - the future leaders of this country - will allow religion to dictate their beliefs as much as the current generation of pollies.
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Religion: good and bad The Age August 25, 2005
Governments should not be promoting or favouring religion in schools, writes Pamela Bone.
'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities," said Voltaire. The books of the major religions contain passages that are absurd and worse than absurd. What are today's kindly Christians to make of this instruction to genocide in the Bible: "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18 )?
What are modern-thinking Muslim men to make of the list in the Koran of women who are forbidden to them, which includes (quite rightly!) their mothers, daughters, mothers-in-law, daughters-in-law, and also married women, "except those whom you own as slaves"?
It's become obligatory when commenting on Islamic terrorism to say that this is a distortion of Islam, that Islam is a religion of peace. In fact, as some reformist Muslims acknowledge, the Koran also contains what Christian reformers say the Bible contains: "sins of scripture". In the Koran can be found passages that promote peace and passages that urge killing. Like the Bible, it is contradictory and confusing. An impartial reader might wonder why God couldn't have made his intentions more easily understandable.
So, what do most religious believers do about the "sins of scripture"? Fortunately for the rest of us, they politely ignore them. Religious extremists might believe in the absurdities, but most people do not.
Karl Marx described religion as "the sigh of the oppressed creature . . . the opiate of the people". If he was right it would imply that when people were not poor and oppressed they wouldn't need the "opiate" (the painkiller) of religion. Yet while societies grow richer and freer, religion persists. Atheism is dead and belief in God has won, it has been proclaimed.
But what sort of belief? In numerical terms, religious belief is growing because it is strong in highly populated poor countries. But it is weak in most modern democracies. In Britain the proportion of those stating "no religion" has grown from 31 per cent to 44 per cent in the past 20 years and only 5 per cent of young people go to church regularly. In most of northern Europe about 40 per cent of the population belongs to a religion. In Australia about 30 per cent have no religion.
What about America then? One doesn't quite know what to make of America. Only 9 per cent of Americans don't believe in God, while a further 12 per cent are not sure. Forty-five per cent of Americans say they believe in the Book of Genesis. Yet even there, if the sincerity of belief can be judged by church attendance, religion may not be very strong in people's lives. Only 38 per cent of Americans go to a religious service at least once a month and only a quarter go every week, according to a Harris poll.
The same poll showed some other interesting results: religious believers are more likely to be older, to be female, to vote Republican and to live in the Midwest or South. African Americans are more likely to believe in God than Hispanics and whites. Those with no college education are more likely to believe in God than those with postgraduate education. People brought up as Protestants are more likely to believe than Catholics and much more likely than Jews. Only 48 per cent of American Jews believe in God and only 16 per cent go to synagogues at least once a month.
Perhaps then, if we keep working to improve the lives of all the people of the world, educate them and make them prosperous, might religion not quietly, gradually disappear? (I don't mean to imply that religious people are uneducated or unintelligent because this is clearly not true.) And, I was going to say, what a good thing that would be, the end of this force that has caused so much misery and violence throughout the ages.
But then - the other day I saw the new British film Millions, and in it school children were performing a nativity play and singing The Little Drummer Boy. And I thought, no, you can't say this is bad. It is, in fact, lovely. It is part of my culture. And I understand that Muslims, Jews, Hindus and others have religious traditions they find lovely, whether or not they really believe in the religion.
So much art, architecture, music and poetry throughout the ages has been inspired by religion. So much beauty in the name of religion. And it does concern me a little that my grandchildren learn nothing about religion at their state school, because without knowing those old stories they will not be able to see the connections in literature and art.
Without religion there would still be art. Without religion there is still beauty and goodness. And without religion, mankind will find reasons to go to war. Yet it remains the case that the best societies in the world are secular societies. And given that some people's religious certainties are putting everyone in danger, governments have a responsibility to keep religion low-key. Our government should not be promoting and favouring religion in the way it does.
Let religion be taught in schools, but have it taught as "this is what some people believe", not "this is fact". Let education be the way its founders intended - free, compulsory and secular. It remains the best hope there is for the future.
No, religion will probably never disappear; because some people simply believe, and that is their right (some people simply don't believe and that is our right, too; more religious people need to acknowledge that). Let people believe what they want. But be grateful most people don't believe too fiercely.
Well she certainly hates religion. It would have been a more effective argument if she weren't one sided from that perspective, but I agree that if it's to be taught then it should be taught from a perspective of many beliefs... in a public school anyway leaving the requirments of religious private schools for another debate. I actually don't think there is a fair way around teaching religious beleifs of creation if evolution and big bang theory is taught given the lack of agreement on the issue of how things came to be and in the interest of representing the diversity of our society. Creation in 10 religions seems to me to be far less material than the amount of time I spent in high school on evolution. My school system was required to also teach Christian creation which took 5 minutes, possibly less, to read. I thought it was un-necisarry at the time but it was only 5 minutes of my life. If it had meant that I only would have had to learn the general idea behind evolution with a few examples then I would have been a lot less bored in 9th grade history class. We spent weeks learning about this period and that period in which this category of creature developed and the Earth was dominated by this animal ans so on but I thnink we all understood the idea perfectly well on day one. So I see this as a 2 day class. One day on evolution and one day reading the first 2 or 3 pages from various religious books, both days with some homework and then on to something more interesting like the history of swordmaking and how to do one at home in your garage... school never really teaches the practical application behind things does it.
Some people might view politics as a form of religion. People certainly follow it with 'religious ferver'. It causes a rise in passions. . (good and bad) the same way religions in churches do.
Political promises always fall short of 'true faith' . .as we well remember 'core promises'.
Politics is just another 'act of faith' . . so therefore it too is a form of religion.
( faith = the assured expectation of things yet unseen)
DEMOCRACY = Voters deciding by Poll on who will be the local member that "Big Business" will push around.
We can't all get what we want with government-funded education...those who shout the loudest or have the most money to offer in bribes donations get what they want to the detriment of everyone else. We've been through the politically correct phase and now it appears we're coming out of that into the Christian right phase. To be followed by the ????? phase.
I think we need to get over this idea that one size fits all. It stands to reason that if you fervently believe in Brand-of-Faith A then you are going to want that taught to your kids along with the three Rs. But Brand-of-Faith B people are going to want their brand taught to their kids. And on it goes. And some of those who want have no brand-of-faith are going to be equally passionate about the type of education they want for their kids...all of these are competing requirements and cannot be accommodated by a single system.
Yes there are private schools and yes some people choose those as an option..but that seems a little unfair given they are also paying taxes for the public schools as well. They might reasonably argue...you take money from me for education therefore you must educate my children the way I want. So either we get the government out of education all together or we at least make it so that those who choose private education can not pay that component of their taxes.
Cheers, BSquared There's more to politics than left and right...find out where you sit on the polical compass by taking the world's smallest political quiz at http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html
I think they can be accomadated as long as it's all taught as being various beleifs and not facts. It doesn't have to be a detailed course of study... and of course perhaps you are right about that and it should simply be left to be taught at home.
I don't think people should have any tax exemptions if they choose private schooling. School is a and provided. Public school is a choice people make. It's like saying that people who don't own cars shouldn't have to pay taxes toward speed cameras, or that people who do own cars shouldn't have to pay taxes toward public transport. Taking it further, it goes on and on and then we're at "No one should pay GST because it might end up somewhere that it should'nt be for a particular individual."
That just got me curious though if does actually work or not. Is there actually a country with a Libertarian model that I can look at for a read?
The fact of the matter is, that if the Government gave no funding to Private and Catholic system schools, nobody would be able to afford the fees, and everyone would lob up at the local public school, which would not be able to handle it.
Calculate how much it would cost to create and run hundreds of new public schools to support everyone. The system would collapse.
Public schools still get more funding than catholic schools ( I don't have figures for Private) and Catholic schools still run P&Fs to raise money to buy the basics like computers and air conditioning that are just given to public schools.
Religion Good and Bad? It's all good as long as you keep it to yourself and don't try to force it down someone else's throat. If everyone just lived up to the first commandment - love one another as yourself, then there would be no conflict. But some religions are just open to interpretation, and believers think this is the law and their right to do whatever they want.
Maybe we should start a thread on does God exist or something...
. . . . .Public schools still get more funding than catholic schools ( I don't have figures for Private) and Catholic schools still run P&Fs to raise money to buy the basics like computers and air conditioning that are just given to public schools.
Religion Good and Bad? It's all good as long as you keep it to yourself and don't try to force it down someone else's throat. . . . . . and believers think this is the law and their right to do whatever they want.
Public schools do the same fundraising as church schools to get airconditioning etc. . .I know 'coz I did it for years to get classrooms comfortable for my kids. No public school gets 'given' anything these days. Parents all have to work hard to give the children the extras.
That term . .'force it down someones throat' . .is disgusting. Everyone has differing views on all things from politics to religion and even favourite shoes and food. . That term is used to 'put others down' for having a different opinion and to get them to shut up. Debate and logical argument is often stiffled when the one who has no valid point to add gets annoyed at being 'out-gunned' . . so use that term to end a debate they will probably lose. . .it is the mark of one with no well thought out opinion.
DEMOCRACY = Voters deciding by Poll on who will be the local member that "Big Business" will push around.
Well perhaps you should try calling Stan Zemanek. There, you are allowed to voice your opinion, but if it isn't the same opinion as Stan, he will talk you down, adnyou will end up losing the argument or getting cut off. That is "forcing your opinion down someone's throat".
You have to be able to understand and listen to both sides of the argument to have a debate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion and believe in what they want - and free speech - as long as it is lawful and doesn't offend someone else.
That is MY opinion, but I am not telling you that it is the right and only opinion. You can believe what you want. The phrase that I used is a commonly used one and I don't find it offensive, but I respect your right to.
First I don't believe that religion should be taught in school.
In the past, it was the role of the church to teach religion to children and it should stay that way.
For those who believe that when children are taught about religion, they should be taught about every religion... That is ludicrous. That defeat the purpose of religion. It would be more an examination of what religion is rather than a belief in religion.
You don't have to attend church to believe in GOD. One billion Christians believe in GOD while most of them never set foot in a church and most of them have never read the bible. Every Christian knows the 10 commandments and that is about all you need to know. If you abide by them, not only does it make you a good Christian, but it makes you a good citizen.
The role of Christianity is foremost to teach people moral values and decency towards their fellow men/women. Many Christians are able to believe in The Big Bang Theory while still believing in GOD. Even if you dismiss The Big Bang Theory because it is just a theory, any man with any brain would realise that GOD could not have created everything in 7 days as our evolution shows that.
I think that what people do these days is to believe in what is believable. You will never be able to prove that GOD do not exist. Which is why there will always be people believing in him.
Religion is only bad when it is used by fanatics and extremists to further their cause. This is not the fault of religion. It is a human error which needs to be corrected. It is not Islam which has turned people into terrorists. It is a group of people which is twisting the words of The Koran to justify their actions. A group of extremists and fanatics.
Islam has 800.000 followers and growing. Extremists use religion as a launching pad because it is the biggest club in the world. When you make a statement in the name of Allah, 800.000 people listen to you.
When you make a statement in the name of GOD, one billion people listen to you. This why we have wars of religion. In fact those wars have nothing to do with religion. Religion is just an excuse to enlist members for the cause. The cause is a thirst for killing people, sort of legally in the name of war. Every terrorist is nothing more than a common murderer. His cause is a figment of his imagination. In a civilise world, there is no excuse whatsoever for murdering randomly innocent people.
First I don't believe that religion should be taught in school. . . . In the past, it was the role of the church to teach religion to children and it should stay that way.
That is so true!.
Quoted from Aussies_Online
For those who believe that when children are taught about religion, they should be taught about every religion... That is ludicrous. That defeat the purpose of religion. It would be more an examination of what religion is rather than a belief in religion.
Another absolute truth . . the teacher would be put on the spot to be teaching accurately . .and that would be impossible.
Quoted from Aussies_Online
You don't have to attend church to believe in GOD. One billion Christians believe in GOD while most of them never set foot in a church and most of them have never read the bible.
Then they may call themselves Christian but that does not make it true. If they have never read the Bible so as to know what God requires of them as Christians . . then their claim is not valid (in Gods eyes).*just like I can call myself a plumber if I want. . but that does not make it true if I have not learned the trade*
Quoted from Aussies_Online
Every Christian knows the 10 commandments and that is about all you need to know. If you abide by them, not only does it make you a good Christian, but it makes you a good citizen.
Sadly that is not true. There is a lot more to being a Christian than simply knowing the 10 commandments. True Christians study Gods word carefully so as to understand it as best they can and the 10 Commandments are a good start. . but that is not all there is to know.
Quoted from Aussies_Online
The role of Christianity is foremost to teach people moral values and decency towards their fellow men/women.
That is a good point . .so why do so many professed christians join the army to kill others at the governments bidding?
Quoted from Aussies_Online
Many Christians are able to believe in The Big Bang Theory while still believing in GOD. Even if you dismiss The Big Bang Theory because it is just a theory, any man with any brain would realise that GOD could not have created everything in 7 days as our evolution shows that.
Wow!!. . you are on a roll here!. . that is true too. . the Big Bang is only a theory . . and Gods 'creative days' were thousands of years long so the literal 7 days of 24 hrs is ridiculous to believe in. Gods take on time is very different to ours. The term day in the Bible denotes a scheduled time frame. . not a literal day.
Quoted from Aussies_Online
I think that what people do these days is to believe in what is believable. You will never be able to prove that GOD do not exist. Which is why there will always be people believing in him.
Actually it is quite easy to prove God exists. . just look around at the fantastic design in everything from the atom . . to the solar system. It all comes together in a display of intricate design . . and that shows there is a 'designer'.
Quoted from Aussies_Online
Religion is only bad when it is used by fanatics and extremists to further their cause. This is not the fault of religion. It is a human error which needs to be corrected. It is not Islam which has turned people into terrorists. It is a group of people which is twisting the words of The Koran to justify their actions. A group of extremists and fanatics.
Islam has 800.000 followers and growing. Extremists use religion as a launching pad because it is the biggest club in the world. When you make a statement in the name of Allah, 800.000 people listen to you.
When you make a statement in the name of GOD, one billion people listen to you. This why we have wars of religion. In fact those wars have nothing to do with religion. Religion is just an excuse to enlist members for the cause. The cause is a thirst for killing people, sort of legally in the name of war. Every terrorist is nothing more than a common murderer. His cause is a figment of his imagination. In a civilise world, there is no excuse whatsoever for murdering randomly innocent people.
That is all true too . . that is why religion is going to get the blame for most of the killing that has happened . God tells his people in his word. .The Bible not to hurt (let alone kill) anyone. If they claim to be Christian and are willing to kill . .then they simply are not Christian. Actions speak louder than words.
DEMOCRACY = Voters deciding by Poll on who will be the local member that "Big Business" will push around.
Some Stats... Major Religions of the World Ranked by Number of Adherents (Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)
Introduction The adherent counts presented in the list above are current estimates of the number of people who have at least a minimal level of self-identification as adherents of the religion. Levels of participation vary within all groups. These numbers tend toward the high end of reasonable worldwide estimates. Valid arguments can be made for different figures, but if the same criteria are used for all groups, the relative order should be the same. Further details and sources are available below and in the Adherents.com main database.
When I lived in Tamworth NSW I taught 'Religion' in the Infants school. The Baptist Church drew up the lessons and guidlines. The children in Kindy were wide eyed and full of wonder. One little aboriginal boy was hilarious asking time and time again if I could talk about the 'dibble' and 'Satan'. Time and time again I told him 'Maybe next time Duncan'. His teacher enlightened me that Duncan's granny was a fire and brimstone christian and talked more about the 'Dibble' than 'God'. I taught 'religion' not to brainwash these impressionable little darlings but... so that in years to come when they are figuring out just 'who' they are they can make an informed decision about whether or not they would like to follow the Christian path in life. I am not a religious person, I am however spiritual. I have very ecclectic beliefs. I do nevertheless believe there is a great Creator. I also believe in an 'afterlife' as well as 'reincarnation'. My ideals and beliefs have changed over the past 30 years in general and the past 5 years in particular. I also believe that it is everyone's own choice to make and no-one should ever force their own beliefs and faith on another.
As a teacher of English and Society amd the Environment I am sometimes called upon to teach the basics of religion within the context of the topic being taught. I am a firm believer that it is every teacher's responsibility to learn about every aspect of the topic they are teaching. For example, while teaching Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales to my extremely interested year 12s, I had to teach a bit about the religious conventions of the time. While many students had no idea what Christianity was about, they were nonetheless fascinated by the whole diatribe; so much so that they sat rivetted for 45 minutes.
Actually it is quite easy to prove God exists. . just look around at the fantastic design in everything from the atom . . to the solar system. It all comes together in a display of intricate design . . and that shows there is a 'designer'.
Public schools still get more funding than catholic schools ( I don't have figures for Private) and Catholic schools still run P&Fs to raise money to buy the basics like computers and air conditioning that are just given to public schools.
:O Not many public schools are given air con, we aren't! The private schools are given a lot more resources eg air cons, and I don't think they should get anything. That's why people pay fees to attend the schools. The public schools go without because the private schools are getting extra money on top of what they already receive. Public schools should get more funding than private. I think religious private schools are a stupid idea.. academic ones have their place though. How are we supposed to learn to be accepting of other religions and cultures etc when say the muslims go to special muslim schools and same with all other religions. Stupid. Public schools let you experience much more.
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